Fix for intonation on old Conn BBb?

[Uncle Markie]

This problem is common to many tubas where the tuning slide is in the leadpipe before the valves. There was a top action Conn (big) made (1930s) that had this problem too. I had a King three valve horn that I had the factory change to tuning slide after the valves that played very well in tune afterwards - and the open Fs came right into tune.

The Mahillion-Sear BBb model - same as Howard Johnson played for years - had this problem big time. I had one in my freshman year of college and trying to play it in a quintet drove me nuts. (Well, even more nuts..)

You will also find the open third (D) is noticeably flat on horns with this configuration.

It's the tuning slide - not the bows. Trust me, it's in the wrong place. You still see this configuration on cheaper horns today - because it's easier to adapt existing valve clusters to several different instruments if the tuning slide is between the leadpipe and valve cluster. Look at instruments where the tuning slide is after the valves (tubas & euphs) and you'll find they tend to play more in tune on the open third and fifth.

Where's the tuning slide on a Martin? Holton? Besson? King? 2XJ? Mirafone? Alex? AFTER the valves.

It makes difference.

Mark Heter

[tclements]

Not being an expert, but I might take issue with this as one of the finest Hirsbrunners (HB390) has a tuning slide in the leadpipe. I think the problem lies elsewhere. But again, I'm no expert....

[iiipopes]

So, does anybody care to comment on the older Hirsbrunners that have the tuning slide before the valve cluster, and the MW-Getzen CB-50 that has the 5th valve before the valve block?

Edit -- I took longer to type, so my post ended up after. My point exactly.

[pjv]

Sorry, Conn 2xJ's, 3xJ's, 14K's, 20K's, 3xK's and 4xK's all have tuning slides after the valve block AND have the same flat f's and e's. By some horns is it less prominent.

With exception of the 2xJ's and 14K, I own or have owned examples of all these horns.

I'd love to spread a rumor that old man Conn "new" that the bottom bow always gets dented, so he secretly made them a little to big so they'd get better with age....

Maybe I should be less careful with my horns. : )

I'm really interested to hear how this one turns out
Cheers, Pat

[Michael Bush]

you can run your hand over the bugle, I think you'll find an antinode about where the bottom bow meets the 1st branch.

What does an antinode (or a node) feel like? How do you know when you've found it?

[kingconn]

You'll be able to feel places where the body of the horn is vibrating. It will be a fairly long area. That will be an antinode.

[sweaty]

I recently bought a 1957 Conn 20j from Dillon Music. It plays very well, but has the typical 20j intonation. The bottom-space F wanted to come out 20 cents flat. To lip it in tune, I had to squeeze so much, the sound would thin out. Fingering it 1st and 3rd was out because I needed to leave the third slide out pretty far to get the low C's and B's reasonably in tune.

When I held that note, I felt around to see which part of the instrument vibrated the most. It seemed to be the main tuning slide. I bought a package of lead tape, 1/2" X 75", and wrapped it around the crook of the tuning slide. That F is now in tune. It may be that I'm just lipping it to where my ear wants it to be, but it is much easier and sounds just as good as the other notes, not pinched.

The rest of the horn's intonation does not seem to be affected. I cannot claim this is scientifically valid, but I believe it is a significant improvement to the horn. I would like to learn more about nodes and anti-nodes and if additional bracing can improve this instrument.

[The Big Ben]

Just a bit of information to correct a common misconception. The tubing ends are not rolled. A half-round ring is soldered onto the end of the pipe for reinforcement and, I suppose, cosmetics. (These are much more difficult to damage, but much more difficult to repair if you do not know that the ring comes off.)

Yes, yes, yes! My Miraphone Standard 3v is a student model and, as a tuba, it is in the same class as all of the rest of the inexpensive student horns. It has these little details like the rings at the tube ends and reinforcements on the ends of the slides that just look good and must add to the durability of the instrument.

[sloan]

I recently bought a 1957 Conn 20j from Dillon Music. It plays very well, but has the typical 20j intonation. The bottom-space F wanted to come out 20 cents flat. To lip it in tune, I had to squeeze so much, the sound would thin out. Fingering it 1st and 3rd was out because I needed to leave the third slide out pretty far to get the low C's and B's reasonably in tune.

When I held that note, I felt around to see which part of the instrument vibrated the most. It seemed to be the main tuning slide. I bought a package of lead tape, 1/2" X 75", and wrapped it around the crook of the tuning slide. That F is now in tune. It may be that I'm just lipping it to where my ear wants it to be, but it is much easier and sounds just as good as the other notes, not pinched.

The rest of the horn's intonation does not seem to be affected. I cannot claim this is scientifically valid, but I believe it is a significant improvement to the horn. I would like to learn more about nodes and anti-nodes and if additional bracing can improve this instrument.

Hmmm...I'm about to drag out my 36J for the Fourth. The band director likes to tune to F. (anyone see the problem, here?) I may try a bit of lead tape. Any chance of a picture showing the details?

[MikeMason]

I used to have an old holton 3 valve that Baltimore brass later put a 4 valve set on for me. I played it as a 3 valve for several months. It had a very long top facing first valve slide. I worked that slide pretty hard,but could play everything down to low e just fine.

[TheGoyWonder]

With a very clean leadpipe and one Conn bit 3rd partial is doable. 5th partial notes are bad unless it's really loud, consider 12/23/4

[Wilco]

I discovered with my melton 6/4 bb kaiser that it does not want to resonate the F at the correct pitch. When i give the F strongly as input the intonation is right on.

[iiipopes]

I recently bought a 1957 Conn 20j from Dillon Music. It plays very well, but has the typical 20j intonation. The bottom-space F wanted to come out 20 cents flat. To lip it in tune, I had to squeeze so much, the sound would thin out. Fingering it 1st and 3rd was out because I needed to leave the third slide out pretty far to get the low C's and B's reasonably in tune.

When I held that note, I felt around to see which part of the instrument vibrated the most. It seemed to be the main tuning slide. I bought a package of lead tape, 1/2" X 75", and wrapped it around the crook of the tuning slide. That F is now in tune. It may be that I'm just lipping it to where my ear wants it to be, but it is much easier and sounds just as good as the other notes, not pinched.

The rest of the horn's intonation does not seem to be affected. I cannot claim this is scientifically valid, but I believe it is a significant improvement to the horn. I would like to learn more about nodes and anti-nodes and if additional bracing can improve this instrument.

I just did that with my King bell-front bari/euph. Open 2nd line Bb was flat. I could really feel the vibration in the offside ferrule. Yes - out came the lead tape. The Bb is now almost in tune, and the entire instrument seems to have a little better depth of tone. Next week it is going to the tech to make sure there is not a leak there.

[Frank Ortega]

I've seen Martin Wilk do wonders with old Conn intonation by adding a tapered tuning slide.

There may be some other magic involved, but I do know that most horns play better when he's done with them!

My two cents,
Frank