New Cimbasso design/Practice instrument

[J.c. Sherman]

I've been reminded a few times that I need to post pictures of this instrument...

First, the why:

1) Verdi's "Trombone Contrabasso," the sonic basis for the modern cimbasso, was an upright instrument. 2) A modern cimbasso, without exception, is a damn cumbersome beast, and seriously awkward in an orchestra pit. 3) I've been wanting to make something akin to the Meinl Weston Travel Tuba for my own use, both for practice and lessons. 4) A "tuba" which a conductor might not question if I'm playing parts contracted on tuba but are written for something... smaller

The result is below:

Cimbasso front.jpg

Cimbasso Back.jpg

Cimbasso Playing.jpg

The result, using King and Olds parts and a heck of a lot of custom tubing, is working out really, really well! I did miscalculate the total length by a few inches, hence the slightly over-long main tuning slide (guilty), but subsequent iterations will not be so encumbered. I'll be buffing and finishing it in the next few months, time permitting.

Right now I'm using a Yamaha Canadian Brass mouthpiece; very good pitch, extremely easy blow.

One other thing - this will also have the option of sitting on my shoulder to point forwards with the rest of the bones, in case that's an issue.

[rodgeman]

Great work. It looks good. Very tempting instrument.

[TheHatTuba]

Awesome! Could you use a detachable bell euph body to get the same effect as the shoulder option? (detachable because you could use an upright for lessons and recording for extra projection)

[Bob Kolada]

One other thing - this will also have the option of sitting on my shoulder to point forwards with the rest of the bones, in case that's an issue.

Like a marching tuba?
What's the volume topout like on it?

EDIT- It's bigger than it looked on your fb page (which is why I guessed King baritone there).

[Wyvern]

Nice Work! Is it in F, or Eb - I'm guessing Eb looking at the slide length? Would be interesting to compare its sound with modern cimbasso and the MW travel tuba.

Looks compatible in size to small French C tuba - I would say 50% bigger than my travel tuba

[J.c. Sherman]

Actually, it's a BBb. And it's sound is... a cimbasso (since that's what it is). BBbs sound a bit more tuba-esque (like a Miraphone contrabass trombone or a Rudy cimbasso). The body is from an Olds Ultratone Baritone Bugle. Why BBb? Well, I have a nice full range without a lot of valves, it'll cover the whole range of the literature, and I didn't have to cut the valve section.

While a removable bell would be... possible, I think the shoulder option was easier. It's not proving very awkward (it does sit a la marching tuba). and it's going to be a very inexpensive option. I probably won't use it that way except for with trombone ensemble.

Oddly, it has a weirdly wonderful high range - Bydlo is very surprisingly easy. I may experiment with the leadpipe for a slightly cleaner on-the-staff articulation, but I've found that range to be a problem on all BBbs.

Volume? Well, let's say it's enough It can crank, and like most BBb cimbassi/contras, they sound a bit round at low dynamics. I'm not sure how to change that except with a drastically smaller bore. One other note; the bore after the valves for many feet is .689, a small step up from the valve section. That's on purpose.

An Eb and another BBb are probably next, or perhaps a CC with 4 valves. I'm not in a rush. I'm really enjoying this ax!

[J.c. Sherman]

If memory serves, 10 feet from after the first valve section brance to the second branch from the bell.

[Bob Kolada]

Does it have a low Eb-B?

[imperialbari]

Does it have a low Eb-B?

Would there be a need for those notes in the original cimbasso repertory? Been a while since I looked through scores. What I remember was about the parts looking like written for 3 valve BBb instruments. So I guess this new instrument will handle the repertory in the spirit of this one:

[J.c. Sherman]

Lowest note I know of in the cimbasso rep is a low Gb.

[Bob Kolada]

Solos, jazz, quintet, and especially trombone choir! Of course, if you want to stay stagnant...

Either way, I'd be super interested in a front action one.

[Alex C]

1) Verdi's "Trombone Contrabasso," the sonic basis for the modern cimbasso, was an upright instrument.

Are you referring to the conglomeration of instruments which preceeded today's cimbasso? Or do you have information on the early cimbasso?

As you probably know, the source of the word "cimbasso" has been related to the indication in early scores for a bass instrument in C (c, in basso), ergo, cimbasso. I don't particularly ascribe to that story but it is possible.

I have researched the cimbasso, particularly the cimbasso ordered by Verdi and made by Pelitti of Milan (Milano). Almost everything that I've found made by Pelitti has four rotary valves and is bell front. The original instrument ordered by Verdi was supposed to have been a BBb "contrabass trombone" and, surprisingly to me, it was intended for a performance of Wagner's Ring. (I thought they were mortal enemies and hated each other's music. Ah, live and learn.) I would assume that Verdi's cimbasso would have to be a bell front instrument to be in the trombone family.

It would be particularly interesting if there was an existing picture of the original Pelitti instrument.

Much of the above information is referenced from Scott Irvine's fine article on the cimbasso, “What’s that thing next to the trombones?” Here

All of the pictures of Pelitti trombones I have seen have been valve trombones, no slides, so I wonder if that company ever made slide trombones. Any help with the research would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[J.c. Sherman]

The "original" cimbasso, or "corni di basso" is a serpent derivative (or, as some are researching, the serpent may have come from Italy...) loosely based on Frichot's Bass Horn (Corni di Basso). Cimbasso or Gimbasso or other uses, along with serpentone, were all for open-hole bass instruments in C (ish) generally with zero or very few keys.

You're right that the Pelitti instruments, and even their contemporary derivatives, are largely rotary valve instruments. However, Verdi's instrument, and the several made after by Pelitti and Orsi were upright initially. Certainly an instrument held in the form of the Bb and F instruments already in the pit (some already with a form approaching the "modern" cimbasso with a bend in the gooseneck) would be nearly unmanageable, and difficult to fabricate. The solution was making an instrument in tuba form, with an upright bell, VERY tall (think Besson comp BBb) and scrawney with 4 top action inline valves. Orsi has a picture of the earliest extant instrument of this sort. Soon, though in relatively small numbers, the current form began to develop in trombone shape... I've seen it suggested that this was due to the evolving shape of the orchestra pit to being beneath the stage rather - at whatever height - being in front of it. A tuba shaped instrument was thus ungainly and poor in blend when facing a ceiling (a complaint I have with orchestra pits all the time and work all the time to get the $%@# bell out).

The sources I’ve read have not mentioned an earlier rotary valve instrument. But you can see the instrument which inspired mine at http://www.contrabass.com/italy/cimbasso.jpg" target="_blank

J.c.S.

[Mike-ICR]

I've seen a few very early examples with rotary valves. I didn't save the info from either of these images so I can't remember the details. I know the older one was built around 1870. The other is obviously modern and with pistons but I thought I'd put it out here anyway. Well done!

[J.c. Sherman]

Ah, the Stauasser (sp?) at Pamela's Music - sexy! Love that one!

The other screams Kanstul... maybe Kalison - is it?

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

These almost look like tromboniums

They kinda are Contrabass tromboniums, bell up.

[imperialbari]

These almost look like tromboniums

They kinda are Contrabass tromboniums, bell up.

I agree on that. The wrap of the valved contrabass trombones may have implications on the directionality of the sound and on ergonomic matters, but they still are valved contrabass trombones.

I didn’t see the pitches mentioned for the two samples shown. F for the piston version and BBb for the one with rotors?

Stowasser was a family of makers with branches in Bohemia, in Budapest, and apparently also in Milano. Maybe only an agency in the latter place. I only have horribly bad photos of a Stowasser BBb cimbasso. And the source wasn’t Pamela’s Music (in the UK), which carries lots of antique oddities, but I didn’t see cimbassos among these.

Klaus

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Very interesting thread--now does someone has a 19th C tutor/method for cimbasso--probably in Italian--that might have a photo/woodcut of what they are calling cimbasso?
mark

[imperialbari]

Could be interesting, but were there even tuba tutors back then? Weren’t bass trombonists and tubists just trombonists moved down? The British situation being slightly different as they moved euph players down. When did the low brasses get their own teachers? Did Roger Bobo have a tubist as his main teacher?

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Weren’t bass trombonists and tubists just trombonists moved down?

Weren't the original tubist in fact horn players moved down? Thus the use of F tuba in the orchestra

It would be interesting when tuba tutors were first employed at music colleges - my guess would be not before the later part of the 19th, if not the 20th century?

Could it have been that there was no standard cimbasso in Italy - different orchestras used different configured instruments, some tuba shaped and some valve trombone like?