Another Embouchure Thread...

[lmedley12]

I have really big lips.

In my lessons, it has been brought to my attention that i play with the inside of my bottom lip. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem or if they have heard of another weido like me that does strange things with their lips while playing?

[David]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "playing with the inside of the bottom lip."

[imperialbari]

The OP’s embouchure type used to be much used in French horn playing where it is called Einsetzen or Inset. My horn embouchure works that way. It takes a a narrow rim to work precisely.

If you use that embouchure with a consistent placement/touch area, if you can move the jaw correctly for the low range, and if you suffer no pain or skin irritation, then I see no problems in applying this embouchure type for the tuba also.

Klaus

[Alex C]

I like a most of what goodgigs said but did not watch the video.

There are consistencies between the embouchures of great players.
1. Firm corners
2. Flat chin
3. Slight pucker

After you have that, the embouchure is made by wind and song. Unless you are having a terrible time playing, musically directed practice will form your embouchure quicker and better than anything else.

Nothing will screw up playing faster than trying to 'put' the embouchure in a certain position. Doesn't work that way.

Lastly, I had a trumpet student with the largest lips I have seen on a teenager. He played 1st chair in the All-State Band his senior year. Big lips are not a hindrance. Thinking is a hindrance.

[pgym]

Lemar,
Please watch this video. Watch all the sugested videos by this same guy. He is the most sientific embouchure guy in history.

While the Wilken videos are indeed informative, I would suggest that the title of "most scientific embouchure guy" belongs to Doug Elliott.

While I suspect Doug would certainly agree that there is no single mouthpiece placement that works for all people, I suspect he would also say that some mouthpiece placements are wrong (or at least problematic) for a given embouchure type.

But these are quibbles.

The thing is, most people, if left to themselves (i.e., not screwed up by their teacher), will naturally gravitate to the mouthpiece placement that is optimal for their embouchure type.

[Doug Elliott]

I would say that if most players gravitated naturally to their ideal placement, there would be a whole lot more fantastic players than there are. There are plenty of instances where a nudge in the right direction will tremendously help a player who hasn't quite found it on their own. I would even go as far as to say that virtually everybody can improve with a few little adjustments.

As for the OP, I'm not clear about what he means... it may not be referring to an einsetzen style at all. He may be playing upstream, with the bottom lip protruding, instead of one of the more usual downstream embouchures. It's unusual on tuba, but if it works there's no reason to change it. There are extremely fine professional players who are upstream, on all brass instruments.

[Alex C]

I would say that if most players gravitated naturally to their ideal placement, there would be a whole lot more fantastic players than there are.

I am glad to have that statement posted!

I was warned to expect changes in the 'most efficient' placement after age 40. Age and over a thousand rodeos did a number on my embouchure. Rediscovering something as simple as where to put the mouthpiece was a enlightening journey I would rather not have taken.

[ginnboonmiller]

It's pretty interesting, and all very short term so far, but this thread seems to have really brought me to a new level of playing over the last couple days. And, incidentally, Alex C, just a few months shy of my 40th birthday.

Not to send this thread in a totally different direction, but I'm starting to wonder a bit... This is purely anecdotal and just a brainstorm I'm having over the last day or two. But it seems to me that I have seen a lot of younger, high school and college aged players going through crazy technique crises while sweating their embouchure too much, while older guys around my age or so seem to thrive and rejuvenate their playing with revelations of this sort. Am I imagining this?

To bring it back to the OP, I might suggest, at least right now, that as a younger guy in better physical shape, that he shouldn't sweat this at all for now - just concentrate on sounding awesome and whatever he's doing with his lips in order to sound awesome is the right thing to be doing. And then, if he's still having issues in, say, 15 years or so, he can revisit this stuff.

I think this might merit serious discussion, but at the same time I might just be projecting my own progress as a musician. I was damn close to a full time pro for a long time, and when I worried about my embouchure my playing always got worse. Until this past week, and I have to say that I'm playing at a level that I've never played before, and that crazy breakthrough seems to be directly related to watching those youtube videos and thinking about this stuff.

[Doug Elliott]

"Worrying about your embouchure" won't get you anywhere positive if you don't know what you're looking AT or FOR.

The past several decades of "encouraged ignorance" by the powers that be in much of the brass community hasn't contributed anything except more ignorance of the subject.

[lmedley12]

Sorry for not posting again in a couple of days.

So to clarify, the problem is not so much the fact that i play with the inside of my lip, but that when i play this way there is a nasal, distorted quality to my sound.

I've tried playing with more of a flat chin, which stops me from poking my lip out so that i can play with the inside of it. Doing so has improved my tone, but range and flexibility has suffered a bit. I'm pretty sure that with practice i can get that even better.

[Doug Elliott]

Sorry for not posting again in a couple of days.

So to clarify, the problem is not so much the fact that i play with the inside of my lip, but that when i play this way there is a nasal, distorted quality to my sound.

I've tried playing with more of a flat chin, which stops me from poking my lip out so that i can play with the inside of it. Doing so has improved my tone, but range and flexibility has suffered a bit. I'm pretty sure that with practice i can get that even better.

You didn't clarify anything for me... I still don't know what you mean by "play with the inside of my lip." But it almost sounds like you're bunching your chin and sort of turning your bottom lip inside out, since you said flattening your chin stops it. I'd go with the flat chin and the better sound. Now to develop the muscles that you haven't been using...

[lmedley12]

You didn't clarify anything for me... I still don't know what you mean by "play with the inside of my lip." But it almost sounds like you're bunching your chin and sort of turning your bottom lip inside out, since you said flattening your chin stops it. I'd go with the flat chin and the better sound. Now to develop the muscles that you haven't been using...

I really wish i wan't so bad at describing things. Thanks for being able to decipher my vagueness. Yes, i am turning my bottom lip inside out. I've been doing more lip slurs and long tones to help with the flexibility and build those muscles.

Do you think a P.E.T.E. could also be useful?

[Doug Elliott]

It would possibly be useful, if you use it with a completely normal embouchure including a flat chin, and firm the muscles below the corners while you use it. Most of the pictures associated with the P.E.T.E. show an excessively puckered embouchure with a bunched chin... and that only strengthens muscles in the wrong position.

[lmedley12]

I know it has been a while but here are so pictures of my embouchure.


old embouchure



new and improved