Why developements go no deeper?

[Highams]

Just thinking why all the latest technology in instrument developement seems to go no further than the trumpet range (or sometimes trombone)?

Obviously the size problem comes into it at our level but if these 'fantastic changes' are that good, why are they not used for low brass (or do we we want them)?

For example, the bell over bell system;
http://www.courtois-paris.com/photoEV2SIB.htm

There's also reverse leadpipes for trumpets which are supposed to be more free blowing (not difficult to adapt to our instruments) and a 'hammered' brass finish they was said to give a beautiful tone.

www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk

[Roger Lewis]

I believe that some companmies are truly working hard at the development of new instruments. The bow design of the new Miraphone 1291CC is a rather radical change and they have done a lot of development work on this instrument as well as on the new F tuba (the 281) due out in late Spring. They are also working on modifications to several of their older models to make them play better as well. Christian Neidermeir is a very talented design engineer for Miraphone and he along with Markus Theinert and the notorious Alan Baer make a pretty good team when it comes to bringing new ideas to the market.

Just my observations.

[MaryAnn]

I wonder too. I know from horn playing that leadpipe and bell tapers have an enormous effect on the playability of the instrument. If someone with leadpipe taper knowledge (i.e., Lawson) would design and sell leadpipes for rotary F tubas.....he could make a mint, because if it were affordable every F tuba player out there would buy one to replace the poor excuse for low range response that F tubas have.

MA

[MaryAnn]

Can't some of you repair folk comment on this? Isn't the MW 2265 a 2165 w/new leadpipe (a la Matt Walters)? Doesn't that rate some merit?

Doc

Doc....aren't those CC/BBb tubas? My ancient 184 CC has a fine low register response. I think they just took a CC/BBb leadpipe, chopped it off, and put it on the F tubas with no further ado.
MA

[tubathig]

I have often wondered about this too, but if I am not mistaken and please correct me if I am wrong. But I think that the Hirshbruner euphoniums come with lead pipes that can be changed out. I would imagine as popular as the tuba and euphonium is getting these days, it won't be long before some of these innovations start showing up on low brass instruments.

[Highams]

Yes I think I read that somewhere as well. I know the tubing to the 4th. valve was slightly different on those. The other change made by Besson a while ago was keeping the leadpipe off the bell. Not sure if it was carried over to tubas or not.

www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk

[Dan Schultz]

Just thinking why all the latest technology in instrument developement seems to go no further than the trumpet range

'Cause trumpet players need all the help they can get!

Otherwise... consider how many trumpets are sold for each tuba sold. It's all a matter of production costs and how many units can be sold. Lessee... a custom tuba costs $20,000 and a custom trumpet costs maybe $3,000. There's no logic here since the cost of brass certainly doesn't make up the difference in cost! The actuall production costs of each part could be about the same were it not for the enormous difference in the numbers produced.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I will state my own opinions here, so please take none of this as fact, just as Arnold Gottlieb's facts. But, here they are as I see them.
1) There is hardly any profit to be made in brass accessorys compared to woodwinds, as an example, when I first moved to New York City I had a job in perhaps the most popular saxophone store in the world. The owner opened a second store with brass and woodwind instruments and has sold some trombones and trumpets, mothpieces, valve oil, etc, but it's not what's paying the rent. Consider a trumpet or tromebone player shopping for mothpieces; they're cheap to begin with and they might play 10 and buy one, how much do you think a store makes on a trumpet mouthpiece? Consider the amount of money that saxophone players will put into new equipment as far as mouthpieces costing 2-3 hundred dollars, and buying a few a year, and then consider the most important sales items, reeds. They wear out, they break, lots of things. Woodwind players need to keep coming into the store to purchase them and there's alway's new stuff to see and try out and buy. If I get a case of valve oil, I don't need to be in a store for a year. Add this to the fact that jazz players don't all want to sound like _____, some of them even want to sound like themselves, and will try tons of stuff to get that sound in their heads, which means a new product has a chance to thrive.
2) Unlike woodwind players, it seems to me that we are not willing to "pay the piper". With a six page thread on this forum of people lining up to buy somebody's blatant copy of anothers product (you can see my rant there), why would anybody go to the trouble of having their product stolen or copied (or any word that makes you feel better) after years of development, or perhaps refinement. I'm guessing that if someone here would offer to pay someone like Matt Walters or Dan Oberloh, or a bunch of other people on this board for their time spent on a project, that person could have anything they wanted, I won't begin to guess how much that would be, but I bet it's more than a hirsbrunner. Anybody got any money?
3)Still buisness, but pro tubas (and by that I mean good quality horns that one buys when they pursue music for a lifetime, for money or not)are a tiny slice of a tiny market. I'm not offering a solid buisness plan here, but if I were going into buisness to sell tubas, I'd sell Werils to schools. I'd sell reeds online, and that's about it.
4)The solution, simple, tell your dealer, maker or whomever what you want and then pay for it. Money always talks. Of course then everybody will want a copy for next to nothing.......
5)As far as us wanting changes, I can only speak for myself, I'd love a tuba that would practice for me, but since I can't have that, I always like to play new stuff, but realize I can do more for me by practicing than buying yet another horn, (so I guess that makes me a grumpy old man) although I do see some stainless steel mouthpieces in my future this year. Peace. ASG

[Leland]

Just thinking why all the latest technology in instrument developement seems to go no further than the trumpet range

'Cause trumpet players need all the help they can get!

I've said that trumpet players are more quick to blame the instrument...

Actually, the range of custom shapes & modifications for trumpets and trumpet mouthpieces is ridiculously large. It makes me think of the hundreds of golf clubs that people can buy hoping that they'll suddenly suck less on the course.

[Chuck(G)]

Arnold, all tuba manufacturers are well aware that (1) the tuba that they're going to sell boxcarloads of is going to be a 3-valve BBb. (2) and the overwhelming bulk of the sales will be schools, who are primarily looking for a good deal from an established firm; very few middle- and high-school band directors know how to select a tuba. (3) The number of orchestral and "serious" tuba players is infintesimally miniscule compared to the school market. (4) School sales will have to subsitdize any production of "professional" instruments like CC and F tubas.

I'm surprised that there are as many "professional" models offered today as there are and that the market doesn't resemble the market for, say, bass saxophones. Building CC and F tubas for a living must surely be a labor of love.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I absolutely agree with you Chuck. As for Bass saxophones, I was really aware of their market (U.S. Army, can only buy new things) for almost a year. The cost was high, the profit was low, and we had to do a lot more selling than on the large amount of $ in reed sales that is everyday buisness. Had one, sold it, didn't get another one. Anyway, I'm hoping this thread might focus on what we might do to get some more development happening if that's what everybody (the tuba community)wants. I've been having some hand problems lately, I'm considering tubas with a different sense of ergonomics than before, and I think I'm ready to have some modifications done. Which reminds me, I need to start a different thread. Peace. ASG