A new blog for your comments and criticism.

[tclements]

FLAME ON!

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank

[k001k47]

I like the part where you talked about a music degree.

[rodgeman]

That was well written piece. I agree with it. I left being a music major and then went into computers. I play in a church and a community band and enjoy it.

Thanks for posting.

[1895King]

I graduated in 1970 with a B.M. Because I had a low draft number, I signed up for the Army section of the school of Music. However, I was so physically unfit that they washed me out after 191 days. I had 2 years of G.I. Bill eligibility so I went back to college and picked up a second major, this time in American History, taught one semester and went back for my M.A.
I worked as a truck driver for one year, an oilfield roustabout for another, and then got hired by the government to assist in collecting delinquent student loans. After 2.5 years that job ended and I got hired by the Social Security Administration where I spent 25 years, retiring in September 2005.
I have continued to play throughout my government career and since retirement. At the present time I am a member of our local University/community and municipal bands; a statewide ensemble which meets once or twice a year; and a couple of other small town bands. I am also in the process of organizing a small brass band to record music played by bands stationed at Fort Hays, Kansas, one of the many posts on the Western Frontier in the last half of the 19th century.
I never felt I was good enough to teach nor did I have the mentality to put up with
teenagers. That said, however, I would not have done anything differently.

[SousaSaver]

FLAME ON!

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Tony -

Nice piece!

When I got to college I was a music performance major. During my first academic advising meeting my very excellent Trombone professor asked "Why are you majoring in performance?" to which I replied, "...because I want to be a performer." He very honestly let me know "you don't have to have a degree to be a professional Tuba player."

The next semester I switched my major to music education.

[windshieldbug]

At the risk of sounding like a delusional old fart, what you say about job opportunities is without a doubt true.
But as I tell real people I need, I wouldn't have traded my music education for anything.

I met the brightest, funniest artistic people while studying.
It gave me the discipline that I needed at that age.
Trying to cram so much into four years kept me (largely) off the street, generally sober, and expecting a lot.
By the time that I figured out what you've so simply stated, I decided to complete my degree and treat my undergrad the same as one would "Liberal Arts".
I then worked a computer "day job" that left me secure enough to really get a gig. And the flexibility to do both while I needed it.
Met my wife (flute) on tour in Portugal.

So, while what you're saying is the absolute truth, life is what you make of it, not decided for you.

But you left out the part of musicians being regarded as servents by many of the people you need to make a living.

[Tundratubast]

Hi Tony,

I did the math, you've compounded the number of weeks being worked. You can't have both a 5 days per week factor and 28 days per month in the same formula. In addition, there are no plumbing employees getting two months of vacation per year, I doubt strongly, that a union shop would get 8 weeks of vacation. The owner of a company with several dozen crews working may get take that much time, but they won't provide that healthy a benefit to their field plumbers.

So let's do the math again. $130 per house call, X 5 calls per day, equals $650.0 per day, X 5 days per week, equals $3,250 per week, X 48 weeks per year, equals $156,000 per year gross revenue to the employer. So the employer pays/deducts the following employee costs; Less taxes, less unemployment premiums paid by the employer to the state, less the workers compensation premiums for employee injuries, less FICA, less healthy benefits paid for the employee, less a 401K or SEP contribution of say, 3-5% matching.

Now, if the plumber was self employed, those deductions would also increase, the FICA is doubled, the plumber also pays their own Medicaid, and other social health care costs the gov't wants to withhold.

The person at the door, depending upon the geographic location would be lucky to be earning $30-$50 per hour for his time, this equates to a short $60-$100,000 per year GROSS personal income based on the typical 2,080 hours full time work week per year and paid vacations.

But, I do agree with you in your concept and thoughts regarding being employed by the trades industry and that of a service industry of performance based income, or that of the public schools. Good Blog.

[Elbee]

Yes, but God help us if the good ones don't persevere and fight the good fight. 57 years later, I can name TWO teachers from my HS days. Band director Dave Stivers and Orchestra director Lorien Stillion, (good grief, just realized we also had a guy teaching choral and theory!) They must have kept hundreds of kids on the right path in their careers...

[Tom Mason]

I don't know what all the complaining is about!



All you have to do to get all the gigs you want is be willing to play for $10.00 and all the booze they'll give you, and be willing to play "Proud Mary" and "Rollin' On The River" all night long.

[Toobist]

I don't know what all the complaining is about!



All you have to do to get all the gigs you want is be willing to play for $10.00 and all the booze they'll give you, and be willing to play "Proud Mary" and "Rollin' On The River" all night long.

You're right. I shouldn't complain... Who needs to eat? I mean, I could stand to lose a few pounds.

Wait! That's perfect!


I'll call it the Pro Tubist Diet (tm).

Only eat what you can afford on a tubist's earnings and watch the pounds fall off of you!
Live on all the foods you love like: bologna, macaroni and cheese, spaghetti (with your choice of bargain no-name sauces!) and noodle packs!

[Mojo workin']

I wish you had written this in 1987, Tony. It might have changed the course of my life.

Alas, when you are young and naive as I was, you just know you'll do whatever it takes to win an audition.

Good that you used the example of a plumber for an alternate career choice. The trades are in need of people. And I can say with considerable knowledge from experience, in need of intelligent people.... to balance out the presence of low class grease monkies you'll find in all of the trades. Yes, some of the trades pay quite well and are secure employment. Plumbers are at the top, followed by electricians. If you want to work very hard and not get paid as much as the other trades, become a cabinetmaker. Virtually no union shops to speak of, mandatory heavy lifting, fine sawdust to breathe in, machines that can take digits or limbs off, etc. Rewarding, I tell you.

[tclements]

YIKES! I DID do the math wrong. I'll fix it on the blog. The entire thing was just written to invoke thought, and discourse. Thanks to you all who gave your opinion. Now, I'll go fix the numbers on the blog.

[Biggs]

I agree with the main point of this post. Frankly, I think it's excellent advice and plays into my philosophy that school is NOT equivalent to job training.

However, I'm gonna quibble over your beliefs about what it takes to teach at the college level. I've had four tuba teachers who held down college teaching jobs at major (D-I), selective institutions. Only one of them has a terminal degree. Without naming names, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to question their qualification. Perhaps terminal degrees are more highly valued for theory/history professors, but I don't think that attribute is as important in evaluating candidates for applied faculty positions. To be fair, terminal degrees certainly don't hurt and are a great resume bolster, but shouldn't be thought of as dealbreakers.

Corollary: In my pursuit of degrees outside music, I've had professors with only a BA (in a different field from what they were teaching) and even a professor or two who never graduated college.

If you graduate with $100,000 in debt then, um, you did school wrong. I really don't know how else to say that. Bloke has written here before that if you're paying for graduate school, you don't belong there. This is exactly correct. Assistantship positions (teaching, research, fellowship), complete with waived tuition and monthly stipends, are out there for the taking. This was true at my far-from-wealthy undergraduate institution and is true at the embarrassment-of-riches institution I currently attend. How do you get these coveted "free rides"? By being competitive in the application process, i.e. working hard and being the sort of applicant that a school feels comfortable investing in - you know, the sort of thing that should be expected of master's and doctoral candidates! Great funding opportunities are also available to undergraduates, but, again, only those willing to be competitive.

I'm not trying to flame you - the message of your blog post is a philosophy that I, as a grad student, consider daily and agree with. I'm just disputing some of the gloomier details based on my experiences.

[sloan]

I agree with the main point of this post. Frankly, I think it's excellent advice and plays into my philosophy that school is NOT equivalent to job training.

However, I'm gonna quibble over your beliefs about what it takes to teach at the college level. I've had four tuba teachers who held down college teaching jobs at major (D-I), selective institutions. Only one of them has a terminal degree. Without naming names, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to question their qualification. Perhaps terminal degrees are more highly valued for theory/history professors, but I don't think that attribute is as important in evaluating candidates for applied faculty positions.

You are correct. Music Professors generally need terminal degrees. Tuba Teachers do not.

[J Stowe]

If you graduate with $100,000 in debt then, um, you did school wrong. I really don't know how else to say that. Bloke has written here before that if you're paying for graduate school, you don't belong there. This is exactly correct. Assistantship positions (teaching, research, fellowship), complete with waived tuition and monthly stipends, are out there for the taking. This was true at my far-from-wealthy undergraduate institution and is true at the embarrassment-of-riches institution I currently attend. How do you get these coveted "free rides"? By being competitive in the application process, i.e. working hard and being the sort of applicant that a school feels comfortable investing in - you know, the sort of thing that should be expected of master's and doctoral candidates! Great funding opportunities are also available to undergraduates, but, again, only those willing to be competitive.

I'm not trying to flame you - the message of your blog post is a philosophy that I, as a grad student, consider daily and agree with. I'm just disputing some of the gloomier details based on my experiences.

Some people just don't have the finances to make it out of school without debt. One parent homes come to mind instantly. I wouldn't consider myself a bad student, per se, just a good student with bad financial and home issues. To think that someone would say that I did it wrong is pretty offensive, especially since I've worked pretty hard to get out of the debt I've taken.

I will say that scholarship definitely paid for my school, but what about food, shelter, etc? Some people just don't have the parental back-up. To those folks, I say get an education over avoiding debt, especially if you want to teach.

[tclements]

Thank you all for your input. Not really being on the job search trail, I would guess if one was to apply for a full time instructor of your instrument, a terminal degree would be needed. Here, in San José, when a full time brass post opened, they did not even consider anyone without a Doctorate. To teach adjunct, I would guess that professional service, and reputation in the community would be the swaying factor. I teach at Stanford & CSU East Bay with no advanced degree. But when full time positions opened up, they still want PhD's or DMA's. I may be wrong on this....

[Biggs]

If you graduate with $100,000 in debt then, um, you did school wrong. I really don't know how else to say that. Bloke has written here before that if you're paying for graduate school, you don't belong there. This is exactly correct. Assistantship positions (teaching, research, fellowship), complete with waived tuition and monthly stipends, are out there for the taking. This was true at my far-from-wealthy undergraduate institution and is true at the embarrassment-of-riches institution I currently attend. How do you get these coveted "free rides"? By being competitive in the application process, i.e. working hard and being the sort of applicant that a school feels comfortable investing in - you know, the sort of thing that should be expected of master's and doctoral candidates! Great funding opportunities are also available to undergraduates, but, again, only those willing to be competitive.

I'm not trying to flame you - the message of your blog post is a philosophy that I, as a grad student, consider daily and agree with. I'm just disputing some of the gloomier details based on my experiences.

Some people just don't have the finances to make it out of school without debt. One parent homes come to mind instantly. I wouldn't consider myself a bad student, per se, just a good student with bad financial and home issues. To think that someone would say that I did it wrong is pretty offensive, especially since I've worked pretty hard to get out of the debt I've taken.

I will say that scholarship definitely paid for my school, but what about food, shelter, etc? Some people just don't have the parental back-up. To those folks, I say get an education over avoiding debt, especially if you want to teach.

I'm sorry to have offended you. I should specified/restricted my comments to referring to graduate programs. Due to the sheer number of students receiving undergraduate degrees, it has practically become necessary to get a bachelor's degree, unless, like Mojo mentioned, you plan on working in a trade. Accruing debt to get an undergraduate degree, I would agree, is a necessary evil.

I stand by my claim that if you're going into debt in graduate school, you should find a program that is willing to offer you better/more financial support. The next best option, in my eyes, would be saving the amount necessary to make the program you want more affordable. The fact that you've eliminated your debt makes me think that you're plenty financially responsible and probably didn't come close to the six-figure debt described by Mr. Clements. Unfortunately, many of my friends and classmates are nearing or at the six-figure mark.

[Biggs]

I would guess if one was to apply for a full time instructor of your instrument, a terminal degree would be needed. Here, in San José, when a full time brass post opened, they did not even consider anyone without a Doctorate.

If I can equate full-time with tenured or tenure-track (please correct me if I'm misinterpreting), then I guess our examples just prove that, unsurprisingly, hiring practices vary between institutions.

[tclements]

Yes, the positions of which I speak would be full time, tenure track positions. ARE colleges/universities hiring without the doctorate?

[Biggs]

Yes, the positions of which I speak would be full time, tenure track positions. ARE colleges/universities hiring without the doctorate?

Yes, but apparently not everywhere. I think, in most cases, these hires have been based on the same types of career accomplishments that you mentioned as criteria for adjunct hires (there's probably a few examples out there of guys/girls who were initially hired as adjuncts before being promoted). I've never been on a search committee though, so I can't prove what the deciding factor was, just what it wasn't.