MP's: Stainless, Heavy Wall vs. Brass

[Bill Troiano]

I've been using the G&W Baer piece for several years now on my Gnagey CC, and formerly on my 52J. I like the feel of the stainless and I feel it might project the sound more (?) than a standard brass piece. It could be an illusion. I've been noticing, on recordings where I'm playing, that I don't sound, to me, as I think I do. That's not unusual, as we all might get that impression of oursleves. Our recorded voices, when speaking, often don't sound the way we think we do either. I thought I had a more colorful or, brighter sound than I heard on recordings.

Recently, a prominent tubist/teacher heard my playing and asked if I liked my mouthpiece. Before I even mentioned the above, he said that he felt that stainless and heavy walled pieces robbed the tone of color. That got me thinking of the above. He also recommended the Laskey 30H as an alternative that I might like. I know the laquer vs. brass thing is a heavily debated subject, but that is a finish. With the mouthpieces I mentioned, it's the actual material the pieces are made of that could possibly affect the sound. Any thoughts?

[opus37]

I had been playing a Denis Wick #2 and #3 on my old Martin Eb. I recently changed to a stainless steel Sellmansberger Imperial. My brass quintet group noticed the difference right away and really like the new sound. I really enjoyed playing the Imperial mouthpiece too. The change in brightness and tone quality is likely more do to the design of the mouthpiece rather than the material of construction. I suspect that the combination of design of horn and mouthpiece together with your playing style are much more important that the mouthpiece material of construction for good tone quality.

[mceuph]

"it's the actual material the pieces are made of that could possibly affect the sound. Any thoughts?"

absolutely. In the same way that a lacquered horn will sound and respond different than a silver plated horn. Mouthpieces preferences are of course highly individual. As you say, it may be an illusion. The only way to know is to record yourself and listen, or play live for someone who really knows you and the sound that you're trying to achieve and compare.

[Donn]

it's the actual material the pieces are made of that could possibly affect the sound.

I'm with those who have already posted above, the material is really the least likely thing to have any effect. But I would hold out for surface effects as a theoretical possibility, however remote. Maybe just for some people, but if your face sticks to some surfaces more than others, it could make a difference.

The effect mass could have is more illusory - a heavy mouthpiece could transmit sound to your teeth and skull more efficiently. In some rather extreme scenario it might even stabilize the mouthpiece against your mouth, e.g., while playing really loud on a sousaphone where the receiver assembly is flexible.

Theory is probably not a good guide for mouthpiece selection, though.

[mceuph]

Theory is probably not a good guide for mouthpiece selection

This screams bumper sticker.

[tubamuphone]

I had an interesting discussion with Scott Laskey a while back regarding different materials. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from our conversation, I got the impression he believed the material does affect tone and response. I was considering ordering a custom 30g with a delrin or stainless steel rim and after speaking with him, decided against it.

Again, I don't want to speak for Scott, but I would venture to say there are some people (myself included) that think the material DOES affect articulation, tone color, and dynamics.

I stand ready to be destroyed by the tubenet naysayers.

JB

[Rick Denney]

I stand ready to be destroyed by the tubenet naysayers.

It isn't a question of saying nay. It's a question of causal mechanisms. A mouthpiece is a zillion times stiffer than the lips that are mushed up against it, so it's rather hard to imagine how the material might move in any way that would affect the vibration of the lips or air within it. If the difference between, say, brass and stainless steel was significant, then how would a Kelly plastic mouthpiece make any sound at all? And yet the Kelly is completely functional.

Brass is easy to machine and take plating pretty well. It's an easy material to worth with. Stainless is more difficult, but a couple of companies have overcome those difficulties. Stainless has advantages: The plating won't wear off, it has a slick feel like gold plating, it is more resistant to damage from impact on the tip of the shank, it won't poison you like brass will when the silver or gold wears off, and it's easier to make threaded parts that don't weld themselves together over time the way silver-plated parts do.

Everyone has an opinion, including those who make mouthpieces. I have heard opinions expressed about the difference between steel and titanium with the G&W mouthpieces, and with various external designs that change the mass. The psychology of playing the tuba is highly susceptible to persuasion, and so if a player thinks there is a difference, there will be a difference. But that doesn't mean there is a physical explanation for those differences.

My favorite mouthpiece for my Holton is a Sellmansberger Symphony, which is stainless steel. But my second favorite is a Stofer Geib, which is silver-plated brass. My favorite F-tuba mouthpiece is a Sellmansberger Solo, but my second favorite is a Mike Finn MF-4, which is gold-plated brass. I like these because of their shapes, and take the material they are made of.

Rick "who has tried the Laskey 30H for an extended period and frankly found it a relief to go back to what he was using before--no one mouthpiece is the universal solution" Denney

[Doug Elliott]

I am firmly in the camp of "I don't know." I've heard the arguments both ways regarding different weights or materials, and my OPINION is that some people experience an effect and others don't. Which takes it at least partly out of the realm of an acoustical reason. But just as bracing on the horn can affect response, additional weight or balance differences at the mouthpiece could conceivably affect the stability or vibration characteristics far away from the mouthpiece itself.

[Doug Elliott]

...
Stainless ... won't poison you like brass will when the silver or gold wears off

PLEASE - can we stop perpetuating this myth? There is an allergy, or dermititis, that a very FEW people experience from prolonged contact with brass. NOT "poisoning." And most people are completely unaffected by it.

[Bill Troiano]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone! There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer regarding this. So, with doubts or concerns about my current piece, it looks like I'll have to try some new ones, whether they be stainless or brass.

[cjk]

I had an interesting discussion with Scott Laskey a while back regarding different materials. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from our conversation, I got the impression he believed the material does affect tone and response. I was considering ordering a custom 30g with a delrin or stainless steel rim and after speaking with him, decided against it.

Again, I don't want to speak for Scott, but I would venture to say there are some people (myself included) that think the material DOES affect articulation, tone color, and dynamics.

I stand ready to be destroyed by the tubenet naysayers.

JB

does laskey actually make anything in stainless?

[tubamuphone]

Yes, it's a custom job so it costs extra, but you can order a stainless version or a brass version with a screw on rim. He told me he'd rather not make just a stainless rim but it's doable.

[ken k]

Whether or not the various mouthepices made of differing materials sound different out in the hall, they definitely feel different to me when I play them.

ken k

[Rick Denney]

...
Stainless ... won't poison you like brass will when the silver or gold wears off

PLEASE - can we stop perpetuating this myth? There is an allergy, or dermititis, that a very FEW people experience from prolonged contact with brass. NOT "poisoning." And most people are completely unaffected by it.

Okay, so I did some research. There is more in the literature related to nickel than brass, and for brass it seems to be limited to those repeatedly exposed to foundry fumes, which, of course, musicians are not exposed to. There are also reports of people who polish and buff brass in their jobs who ingest enough brass for it to oxidize through their perspiration, leaving green sweat stains. We know many people who polish brass routinely and they seem unaffected, in that they are no crazier now than they have ever been.

So, you are right--the truth of this tale lies outside the experience of brass players.

Brass will, however, leave a green ring on the face. Gold, silver, titanium, and stainless steel will not.

Rick "who also finds brass to have a sharp, bitter taste" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I am firmly in the camp of "I don't know." I've heard the arguments both ways regarding different weights or materials, and my OPINION is that some people experience an effect and others don't. Which takes it at least partly out of the realm of an acoustical reason. But just as bracing on the horn can affect response, additional weight or balance differences at the mouthpiece could conceivably affect the stability or vibration characteristics far away from the mouthpiece itself.

I am inclined to agree, but mostly in the absence of a reason to disagree. Vibration is such a messy topic that I'm not sure anyone could disprove that applied mass at any point in the system has a noticeable effect.

As a matter of curiosity, I installed those heave-weighted rear rotary valve caps on my Miraphone. With a critical listener, there was no question that they made a difference, but it seemed that the difference resulted from the way the instrument felt to the player rather than any direct acoustical influence on the sound. With the weights, the instrument was a bit easier to slot, and a bit harder to bend, and this was noticed by two players one of whom is a professional (and also a skeptic). He didn't like the effect because he desired the ability to bend the pitch at will, but it was a marginal improvement for me. These weights totaled a much greater weight than a heavy mouthpiece, and they also were mounted in a part of the instrument relatively free to vibrate. The mouthpiece is damped by contact with the face.

As with the instrument's material, I have no doubt that it affects the player's experience, but I still rather doubt much effect out front. Testing would not be easy. And even secondary effects and placebo effects can be valuable, at least for a little while.

Rick "noting that many performance weaknesses have relatively little to do with physical processes compared to mental processes" Denney