Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

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Rick Denney
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by Rick Denney »

Donn wrote:...Not that I'm proposing that it's a valid consideration, but just for the sake of discussion, a bell may have a slightly heterogeneous composition with respect to crystalline microstructure etc., and you'd have to check with your experienced vibration engineers about that.
I doubt any effect there. As long as the material is in its elastic state, which it had better be, the grain structure won't matter. The grain structure of metal affects primarily its strength, which is, by definition, at the upper boundary of the elastic range. It does not affect stiffness or density. We are accustomed to thinking of stiffness and strength being related, but when used in material science they are not.

Personally, I think trombone and especially trumpet players are fooling themselves with discussions of material properties. But they are a nervous lot and they live and die by their perceptions, so I don't interfere.

The formation method is a different thing, though. It can leave residual stresses in the material that preload the material and affect the way it couples acoustically with the air vibrating inside it. I suspect the vibration of the brass is slightly important for trumpets and to a lesser extent for trombones. And it's perhaps important for French horns. But I challenge its importance for tubas, because of the types of sounds produced by tubas and because of the relevant frequency range. We just don't push up into those sibilant overtones, even with our version of edge. Any edge we produce that does get up into that range will probably get us a dirty look from the conductor.

And I am not prepared to dispute a significant effect resulting from slightly non-round bells. That, of course, affects the shape of the resonating chamber, which is important.

Rick "never come between a trumpet player and his preconceptions" Denney
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by Tom »

Karl H. wrote:I don't think this is truly 'jacking the thread, but has anyone considered/completed silver plating on a raw brass instrument?

I have Alexes that have been stripped of any lacquer (made a HUGE response/tone difference in the F: the thickness of the lacquer was astounding, similar to hippopotamus skin. Watching it slough off was nauseating), and I worry about my Alien-like body acids eating through irreplaceable brass. The metal is pretty thin anyway, and I've already replaced a leadpipe on the CC.

If the difference in tone/response is negligible between silver plating and raw brass... ?

Karl "seeking donors to cover the cost as a tax write-off" H.
I have two Alexander 163 CC tubas in my posession at the moment:

1. My own raw brass 4 valve 163.
2. Silver 4 valve 163 with silver plate by Anderson. Left the factory as raw brass. On loan to me.

Both of these tubas were Giardinelli imported Alexanders from the early 1980s. They have serial numbers stamped on their second valve casings that are VERY close to one another. I have taken lots and lots of measurements of the two instruments and for practical purposes (and for comparative purposes here), they are as identical as possible, including bore size, leadpipes, and receiver. There are subtle variations to be expected in handmade instruments, but these two strike me as surprisingly consistent. Probably as identical as two Alexanders could ever be.

To me there is a noticable difference in response between the two instruments. I feel my Alexander (raw brass) responds quicker and is more open, but that I can "throttle" the silver Alexander easier and that it somehow has more resistance in it which seems to make it "easier" to play.

I doubt any of this has to do with raw brass vs. silver and more to do with the fact that it's two different handmade tubas. Mine has been disassembled and completely rebuilt in the past. I'm not sure about the other. That could have something to do with my un-scientific observations, too (ie more careful assembly vs. possible old factory assembly).

They are both really, really great Alexanders. I'd buy the silver one in a second if it were for sale.
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by swillafew »

I think a blindfold test would expedite the findings. One is mentioned in the thread already.

Raw brass seems to captivate, but not enough to warrant new horns getting delivered that way. At least not that I know of.. :roll:
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by SousaSaver »

goodgigs wrote: Until I invent a plastic lipped robotic tuba player, there is no way to do this, except by supper repetive multi player demenstrations.
Brian -

I agree with the main thesis of your statement, but I don't think that even a robotic, consistent Tuba playing machine would be a good indicator for a test because when a human being goes to play that same horn, the horn will respond differently to the player because of the mouthpiece, or the players aptitude or the shape of the players chops and oral cavity or other possible physical differences. I do like the idea though.

I do agree that people are influenced by sub conscious biases that they have.
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

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"Get the Horn you like and play the **** out of it."

My small modification of this is get the horn and mouthpiece you like and play the **** out if it. Tuba playing gives me enjoyment, that's why I do it. Part of that is what the horn looks and feels like. The finish on the horn is part of that perceived pleasure. As long and the horn mouthpiece combination is basically sound (it plays in tune and doesn't leak), I'm for getting the most enjoyment you can out of playing. In my opinion, the pro's play for money, but really enjoy what they are doing. How can it get better than that.
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

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The German manufacturers have had access to transducer technology that allows them to conduct controlled acoustic tests of their instruments. That's not the problem.

The problem is that the comparison is impossible. There are so many possible explanations, many of which invisible on inspection, for subtle differences in any pair of supposedly identical instruments as to prove nothing even if those differences can be measured. When a design strategy is measured for effectiveness, that strategy has to be measured based on the mechanisms by which it creates an effect, not on the overall outcome. To systems engineers, this is the difference between verification (conformance with design intentions) and validation (achieving the user's objectives). Validation cannot provide verification. It can't even disprove it. That's why proper engineering testing requires both.

Any one instrument that is plated is not the same instrument as before. It's had the crap buffed out of it, and probably a detailed overhaul requiring complete disassembly. And the time that takes means the player will not be the same player as before.

No comparison of trumpets is relevant here. Trumpets live in a different frequency domain, and trumpet players are not human in any measurable sense.

Perhaps some particularly thick lacquer job has a noticeable effect from the perspective of the performer. A few performers think so, at least. But they are validating outcomes, not verifying that design intentions are being carried out, so their experience is at best inconclusive. Most people, though, don't remove lacquer unless the instrument needs repair and they don't want to spend what it takes to replace the lacquer. I've seen lots and lots of high-end soloists and performers pick up whatever instrument their sponsor has on offer at the moment and give performances using that instrument with no complaint. Quite frequently those instruments are lacquered.

At least lacquer as a material is different from the underlying brass. I don't think it's thick enough to explain anything. But silver plating? The silver is mechanically so similar to brass as to render any differences invisible to sound waves.

Those transducers do allow those manufacturers to test the intonation tendencies of the instruments, and that is about 1.4 million times more useful than any effect, real or imagined, resulting from the applied finish. The good intonation of recent instruments compared to the old days is testament to those important advances.

Rick "noting that musicians are tempted to worry about fine effects and overlook gross effects" Denney
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by bort »

Tom wrote:2. Silver 4 valve 163 with silver plate by Anderson. Left the factory as raw brass. On loan to me.
...
I'd buy the silver one in a second if it were for sale.
Can you at least show a picture of it! :shock:
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by SousaSaver »

Rick Denney wrote:The German manufacturers have had access to transducer technology that allows them to conduct controlled acoustic tests of their instruments. That's not the problem.

The problem is that the comparison is impossible. There are so many possible explanations, many of which invisible on inspection, for subtle differences in any pair of supposedly identical instruments as to prove nothing even if those differences can be measured. When a design strategy is measured for effectiveness, that strategy has to be measured based on the mechanisms by which it creates an effect, not on the overall outcome. To systems engineers, this is the difference between verification (conformance with design intentions) and validation (achieving the user's objectives). Validation cannot provide verification. It can't even disprove it. That's why proper engineering testing requires both.

Any one instrument that is plated is not the same instrument as before. It's had the crap buffed out of it, and probably a detailed overhaul requiring complete disassembly. And the time that takes means the player will not be the same player as before.

No comparison of trumpets is relevant here. Trumpets live in a different frequency domain, and trumpet players are not human in any measurable sense.

Perhaps some particularly thick lacquer job has a noticeable effect from the perspective of the performer. A few performers think so, at least. But they are validating outcomes, not verifying that design intentions are being carried out, so their experience is at best inconclusive. Most people, though, don't remove lacquer unless the instrument needs repair and they don't want to spend what it takes to replace the lacquer. I've seen lots and lots of high-end soloists and performers pick up whatever instrument their sponsor has on offer at the moment and give performances using that instrument with no complaint. Quite frequently those instruments are lacquered.

At least lacquer as a material is different from the underlying brass. I don't think it's thick enough to explain anything. But silver plating? The silver is mechanically so similar to brass as to render any differences invisible to sound waves.

Those transducers do allow those manufacturers to test the intonation tendencies of the instruments, and that is about 1.4 million times more useful than any effect, real or imagined, resulting from the applied finish. The good intonation of recent instruments compared to the old days is testament to those important advances.

Rick "noting that musicians are tempted to worry about fine effects and overlook gross effects" Denney
Rick -

While I agree with about 95% of what you are saying, would you agree that for most people it is best to not even dwell on this, but to just practice more? I think that some people might get up in their heads thinking about this stuff and let it adversely effect their playing.

By "some people" I am referring to myself about 5 years ago...
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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

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BRSousa wrote:While I agree with about 95% of what you are saying, would you agree that for most people it is best to not even dwell on this, but to just practice more?
If you agree with that, then you agree with 100% of what I'm saying.

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Re: Plating: The Different and unique tonal qualities

Post by SousaSaver »

Sorry Rick, you're right. I was posting in the wee hours of the evening and was very, very tired... :oops:
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