Group mind consensus regarding the Alex 163

[Walter Webb]

I have researched the 1960s Alexander 163 4 rotor BBb and come to the conclusion that is has an awesome tone, especially in the low range, but is frequently AWFUL: not just quirky, odd, or lippable, but awful regarding intonation. Due to variations in production, there are reports of some good ones that their owners love and will cherish till the day they die, but many more have tried one or two and walked or run in the opposite direction. Currently priced: 8 grand, as often seen on Ebay, is ridiculous, but 4 -5 grand is reasonable, if you can play test it first with a critical ear and an eye on the tuner, and find a goodie.

I would appreciate any further input from the widely experienced TubeNet group mind on this subject. Perhaps there are other 5/4 (.810 bore) BBb tubas in the same price range.

[arminhachmer]

The Meinl Weston Fafner? Baltimore brass have it new for less than 10 grand.
Have not heard anything about intonation 'quirks' with that one.

Miraphone 191 rotor and 1291 piston? Excellent horn.

My 2 cents. Curious to hear others ..

Armin

[Ben]

I own a 163, and it plays great. The "quirks" are no worse than many of the quirks in large horns of that era.

The 163 is an old model of tuba, there have been considerable technological improvements since the Alex heyday with respect to design and manufacturing. Yes the newer ones are slightly different (bell size!, leadpipes!, receiver!) but the aging population of Alex tubas have quite a bit of variation due to the techniques used to fashion them. The older horns have no "receiver", I have been told the used to use a tool that inserted into the leadpipe by hand (forcefully) to set up the taper.

As for price. If the alex is a good one, in good shape 8k may be reasonable. Compare the playing characteristics with what you can purchase on the market, If you have the cash, and the horn beats the market hands down... Pay the seller, and walk away quickly and with a smile.

[bisontuba]

HI-
Currently on ebay, a BBb 4v Alex:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Alexander-163-BBb-T ... _500wt_951" target="_blank

OR

the Asian clone of the BBb Alex, which I understand is EXCELLENT (BTW, they even have a used one of these at Dillon's right now for $1,995)!

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... 1.aspxlank" target="_blank

mark

[bort]

I say if you have the dough and the inspiration, give it a try and don't be too worried. Yes, you can learn a lot from a play test, but not everything. For me, a play test is only enough to decide whether or not to buy it. Ideally, I like to have a few weeks to practice, rehearse, and perform with the tuba... and then decide whether or not to keep it.

Also, the good news about buying an older tuba is that if you buy it for a decent price, you can recover nearly all of your money if you resell. For a 50 year old tuba, there's not a lot of depreciation between year 50 and year 51 (again, if you get a reasonable price).

[Jonathan Fowler]

I currently play a 163 CC. It is one of the newer ones. The intonation quirks are there, but a 2nd valve kicker takes care of the inherent sharpness of e and eb.

I can't say I've ever played on of the old ones enough to know all of the quirks, but most players will tell you, myself included, that if you can manage it, it's worth the hassle.

Over the years I've owned a few CC tubas (a MW 2144, an HB-50, a 2155 and now the 163), and I can honestly say that I never really loved the way any of them sounded until I played the 163 in a big hall.

I'll stop gushing now before I start talking about the 155...

Jon

[bort]

Do you have a new 155 or an older one? Not sure i've seen a new one!

[Tom]

You posted about Alexanders, so of course you're going to get the Alexander owners to come out of the woodwork to defend their brand, but with that said...

It is EXACTLY these kinds of threads thrown out there with such quotes as "... come to the conclusion that is has an awesome tone, especially in the low range, but is frequently AWFUL: not just quirky, odd, or lippable, but awful regarding intonation" that do nothing more than perpetuate the stereotype that Alexander intonation is awful.

There was no further explanation offered as to how you came to that conclusion or how you define "awful" intonation. Maybe the BBb you tried (assuming that "researched" means played) wasn't so good, but going on and say that 1960s Alexander BBb 4 rotor tubas are frequently awful seems to be way overblown.

Most of the people reading this will probably never play or own an Alexander and quite possibily will never even see one in their band/orchestra/university, yet they will see a thread here and walk away with the idea that Alexanders have bad intonation.

Turning the tables for a moment...

I've heard people play Miraphone 186s, 188s and Thors that couldn't play them even close to in tune to save their lives. And these are models touted here as being ultra easy to play with near perfect intonation. I've never owned any of those models. What conclusion am I to draw from that? Bad instrument or bad player? Isolated case or universal truth?

Alexanders cannot (and should not) all be heaped together and then have a bunch of generalizations slapped on them. They are all different from one instrument to the next, from CC to BBb, and from model to model. There are a million and one variables in any given instrument and no two instruments from any maker are ever 100% identical no matter what anyone says. They're just not because it isn't possible (too many variables).

[bort]

I'm not sure if he still has it, but Lee Stofer also has a Alex BBb up on his Web site, and says that it has very, very good intonation. If Lee says it's good, it's good! Maybe give him a call!

[Jonathan Fowler]

Tom - I completely agree with you about the generalizations being unfair to any particular make/model as a whole. I'm sure that there are some serious Alexander "lemons" out there, but I've played more bad tubas than I care to count from other more "current" makers.

Bort - Yes, in fact my 155 was bought brand new in 2003 from Dillon's. It is in gold brass, light as a feather, easy to play - but the sound holds up remarkably well in a quintet or even large orchestra.

[Ken Herrick]

One of the biggest causes of intonation problems with rotary tubas, in particular, is poor valve alignment. Over the years I have realigned valves on many tubas, french horns and bass bone triggers with the result that the playing characteristics and intonation have been vastly improved. This includes a couple Alex 163s.

As an example, in '65 I borrowed a brand new Mienl Weston BBb from Northwestern U to use over the summer while my first King, a 3v, was being overhauled. My first impression of it was that it was bloody awful. Stuffy, bad tuning, etc. I pulled the valves apart straight away and visually aligned the valves and installed new bumpers. The factory alignment marks were nowhere near correct. Getting the valves open/shut correctly was a big start. Next I lapped the valves so they sat down into the casing the correct distance as well. What had started as a POS became a pretty decent horn. The lapping also made the valves much faster and quieter with much better air-tightness.

A year or two later, when I met Oscar from MW and mentioned the problem and the fix he seemed somewhat surprised that a seemingly slight lack of attention to detail could make such a big difference and assured me he would make a point of getting the problem corrected.

If I were to be buying a tuba I would certainly want the valves properly aligned and lapped in.


As for Alexanders, 163 in particular, it maybe takes a bit more time than some to reach the point where they truly become an extension of yourself to get the best out of them but it can be well worth it.

[cjk]

Funny. I've always heard that the BBb and F Alexanders were pretty decent in the intonation department while the CCs were more variable. I'm not even Alex knowledgeable by any means.

[TexTuba]

I've played a few 163 CCs and one 164 CC. Only one had intonation that was truly not manageable as it was (164 CC.) But that sound on the 164 made me WANT to learn how to play that horn. There really isn't another horn out there that sounds like the old Alex tubas. Even my wife, having heard me for many years on many horns, notices a REAL difference in the quality of sound when I get an Alex in my hands compared to other horns.

[joshwirt]

I had never played an Alex 163 CC until we had one come into the shop recently for a cleaning and consignment sale. I can easily say there is only one other instrument that I have ever played that lights up a room quite like this Alex...and no, its not my PT6P.

But playing this tuba makes me finally understand why players went ga-ga for those horns. Something about it just makes everything in the air vibrate...its a truly remarkable sound. I also have to admit that I didn't find the 4 valves limiting. In fact, playing the low F 1-2-4 produced the biggest sounding low F I've ever played...and possibly the easiest as well.

(and yes, its still for sale)

-Josh