B&S / M-W

[Wyvern]

Are B&S also still being sold in the USA as VMI?

[SousaSaver]

Yeah, but they aren't very common.

[Tom]

Without getting into specific models, I would say that over the last 10-15 years in the US the JA Musik conglomerate has absolutely shifted their focus from the B&S line to the MW line. The actual VMI brand is all but dead in the US. All of the r&d and all of the new models seem to be coming out under the MW moniker rather than under B&S even though they are made by the same company in most likely the same factory. The B&S model line doesn't seem to have seen much development since the GR-41 "York 4/4" (a crappy "copy" of the original, imho). The PT-6 is old news and has been available more-or-less as is for years as has the PT-15. I don't even know that I could count the number of new MW branded CC and F tubas that have been done in that time...a lot!!!

[ckalaher1]

Maybe I've got a different perspective due to the fact that I am now coming out of an 8 year layoff, but it seems like B&S is still the company it was back then, with pretty much the same models being produced.

On the other hand, MW and Miraphone seem to be pushing forward, making tubas that are very accessible, and seemingly spending a great deal on R and D.

More than anything, I think that B&S is hurt here in the states by the company that has exclusivity to their product.

[Alex F]

The only direct comparison I could ever make is between the B&S PT-1 and the VMI 2103 (a/k/a 103). Despite the substantial price diference between them, the only major difference is that the PT-1's bell is 19" as compared with the 2103's 17.75" bell. That and maybe a tad more nickel-silver on the PT-1. A few years back, you could buy a 2103 for under $3.5K. Even then the Miraphone 186s and MW 25s were selling for over $5.5K.

[Wyvern]

I think it interesting that they have decided to sell the Tuono CC under the Meinl-Weston brand, when it seems to be largely based on the B&S GR55 BBb

[tubalex]

I'll preface this by saying my C is a B&S, my F is a miraphone, my spare C is a Miraphone clone and my euph is a Besson. My point being I've no allegiance to any company at this point, I just go for what I really like.

I have yet to play a 4/4 or 5/4 MW which I like as much as the PT 20p and the PT6. The PT just has a more finished, colorful mature tone, in my opinion, than the 2145, Thor or the 2000. I don't think the PT 7 holds up well against the 6450 (in evenness and playability) or especially the yamayork (in overall quality).

For F tubas, I have yet to play a B&S which makes quintet playing (currently my main performance genre) as easy as the Firebird. The only Firebird I think sounds colorful enough to not be dwarfed in tone by the PTs is the gold-brass-finished ones. I haven't come across a MW f tuba with a sound that catches my ear, but they sure are easy to play. I still think the most colorful tone comes from the PT10, or the JBL classic.

I love the sound of the rotary Fafners. They make me wish I lived and worked in Germany.

It's great to have so many choices. We owe a lot to the folks who opened things up from the incredibly limited options of the 50's and 60's.

[BuzzedB]

In my very short experience as a tuba player I have had the opportunity to play a couple of horns one of them being a pt-6 that belong to my lesson teacher and the horn has good intonation but it is a very stuffy instrument and not very prominent when you play it. As for MW horns I can't say but I haven't heard many flattering things about them either.

[arpthark]

I don't care for the M-W pre-Thor contrabass tubas (2145, 2155, 2165, haven't played the 2000).

That being said, I think they really hit the mark with their new line up. Classmate has a Thor - wowzers. If I were in the market for a large piston CC, this would be the one. I'd like to try the rotary version. The 6450 also impressed me at TUSABTEC. I much preferred it to the Yorkbrunners I've played.

Seems like M-W is quietly euthanizing their 21XX lineup to focus on the new Thor, Baer, et al, and for good reason.

The M-W F tubas also seemed to hit stride with their new additions - I found the 2250 loads better than the old 45SLP, and the 4450 was solid.

B&S, on the other hand, isn't putting out nearly the same volume of new tuba designs. Bar the PT-606, JBL and the newer BBb's, all is quiet on the Markneukirchen-Klingenthal front. You've got your same old workhorses; PT-10, PT-15, PT-6.

Could the B&S division of JA Musik be geared more towards Europe and M-W more towards American tastes? I think that could be the trend. Although, the PT-10 is the most popular bass tuba in colleges in the USA according to the blurb on the B&S website. The PT-6 is really popular in the USA too, but it just seems like M-W has so much more to put on the table that could be eaten up by the tuba-hungry public.

FWIW, I've got my heart set on a PT-6. First time I played one was at TUSABTEC; blew me away.

edit: thinking about it, with all the new MW BBb's (Fafner, Fasolt, 197) that argument doesn't really hold water. I guess the conglomerate is realizing that M-W is where the money's at, so they're funneling the most resources to that faction.

[Rick Denney]

I see a couple of commercial possibilities.

1. B&S is respected in Europe, probably, but possibly not to same extent that it is in Britain and the U.S. Back when B&S was in East Germany, nobody in West Germany would have owned one or probably even wanted one. Even after unification, the western Germans thought themselves far ahead of their eastern brethren (and with good justification).

2. B&S is an exclusive marque in the U.S. based on agreements that were made long before VMI existed as such long before B&S and Meinl-Weston were owned by the same people. That exclusivity forces a high price, which in turn reduces the market size. And not everyone was prepared to go to Royal Oak to make a deal for one. Several bought B&S tubas on the gray market to avoid that, and Bevan reports that British tuba players smuggled them into the UK illegally. Marketing the instruments under the VMI label (among others) made it possible to bust this exclusivity, but without a brand that had built a strong following in the U.S.

3. Meinl-Weston is a brand that has been marketed widely and openly in the U.S. for a long time. They were probably the second western European company in U.S. market share behind a dominant Miraphone, for many years.

With these points in mind, it seems to me that if I were Gerhard Meinl, I would see a larger sales potential in selling Meinl-Weston-branded tubas over B&S-branded tubas, simply because the retail market was opened up.

It would be tempting to think that VMI is as commercially conservative as most Communist manufacturers, with models perpetuating very old designs nearly indefinitely. That makes the Symphonie F tuba and its successors all the more remarkable--it was a truly new approach to a symphonic F tuba at the time. But it was also the 70's, which was just about the peak of Second-World economic power and innovation. (This is seen also in the photography world, where VEB Carl Zeiss Jena, which nobody in the U.S. has heard about--except for a few weirdos like me--, employed two or three times as many people as did Zeiss Oberkochen, the famous producer of optics for such cameras as the Hasselblad and Rolleiflex. The Oberkochen concern was founded with U.S. help in evacuating the principal scientific and R&D staff from Zeiss Jena into West Germany.) The whole B&S line in rotary F tubas is to this day quite similar to the 70's-era Symphonie, with modifications motivated by western marketers.

Does that conservatism still make B&S reluctant to overhaul its line every few years? That would be hard to say without knowing the people involved. But I sense that M-W is leaving that line alone, and shifting its marketing resources to brands they can market openly through a wide dealer network in the U.S.

Rick "suspecting this is what Bloke is getting at" Denney

Edit: As pointed out in a PM, if I were Anton Meinl, I would be quite dead. Of course, I meant Gerhard, as corrected.

[BuzzedB]

B&S, on the other hand, isn't putting out nearly the same volume of new tuba designs. Bar the PT-606, JBL and the newer BBb's, all is quiet on the
Markneukirchen-Klingenthal front. You've got your same old workhorses; PT-10, PT-15, PT-6.

I realize that some people will die by perantucci horns but the one that I have played did nothing to really impress me. But having said that I have only played one of thousands so take my opinion lightly.

Could the B&S division of JA Musik be geared more towards Europe and M-W more towards American tastes? I think that could be the trend. Although, the PT-10 is the most popular bass tuba in colleges in the USA according to the blurb on the B&S website. The PT-6 is really popular in the USA too, but it just seems like M-W has so much more to put on the table that could be eaten up by the tuba-hungry public.

FWIW, I've got my heart set on a PT-6. First time I played one was at TUSABTEC; blew me away.

edit: thinking about it, with all the new MW BBb's (Fafner, Fasolt, 197) that argument doesn't really hold water. I guess the conglomerate is realizing that M-W is where the money's at, so they're funneling the most resources to that faction.

[BuzzedB]

I realize that b&s horns are great horns but the one that I have played did not really impress me. But that being said I have only played one of thousands so take my opinion very lightly.

[toobagrowl]

M-W tubas have a denser, darker, more focused/concentrated sound with bite in comparison to B&S tubas. B&S tubas have a more open, lighter sound with more overtones. Both are rich, full, rounded sounds, imo.
M-W's sound a little 'grainy' up close, but project and sound GREAT out in the hall.
And when you push them (play louder), it's like turning up the sound on your stereo system - more great sound!
B&S tubas sound all nice and smooth and colorful under the bell and up close, but just don't project as well as many other tubas 'out front'. It's a shame because I like the sound color from (most) of them. But there is something about the way they sound that make them blend TOO well in large ensembles to the point that the sound gets swallowed up by the other bass instruments. I am mainly talking about the contrabass models here.

These are my observations on both brands of tubas over the years playing them and listening to others play them.

I prefer the rotary versions of both brands because they tend to offer more vibrancy and growl to the sound - it makes the sound a little more interesting and complex.
The piston versions tend to 'water down' or 'dull' the sound a bit, imo.

Both the M-W 25 and B&S PT-1 are fine 'basic' 4/4 BBb tubas



*Bump*