American style Euphonium questions

[Gorilla Tuba]

Although I am really a tubist, I just purchased a used King American syle euphonium from Baltimore Brass (Bell up, 4 front action valves, model 2268?). I only had time to play it for a few minutes, but in that time I think I may have found a horn I am really going to like. It is easy to play, seems to have very good intonation, and looks good, too.

Question 1: Mouthpieces. This horn has a small shank reciever, for which I only have a few mouthpieces. I have many mouthpieces for large shank recievers and have come to really like the Shilke 52D and Mead SM3. Will one of these work well on the smaller bore/ smaller reciever instrument. I am curious because I do not like either of these for trombone. In short, before I purchase one of these in small shank, do any of you know if there are any inherent pitch or tonal reasons a larger mouthpiece wouldn't work well on a King American style euph?

Question 2: Why don't more people play these types of horns? To me it is just fun to play. We'll see if my opinion changes after playing it for a few months, but I really liked its sound and ease of playing. Granted it is not quite as dark sounding as one of the 12-inch-belled-huge euphs that are so popular today, but it is certainly darker than a true baritone and to my ear, every bit as dark as the Yamaha 321 I have been tootin' on. In my time as a teacher, I have played my share of really bad American style euphs. But certainly there were good ones... as this one seems to be. Is it just a matter of current euph fashion?

[Gorilla Tuba]

Thanks, Bloke. I did use a Wick 4AY to try the horn out and liked the sound. I was looking toward the bigger mouthpiece more for comfort because I am really a tubist...

I have had the same observation about the continual tendency toward larger instruments among musicians. The fact that I play a PT6 in quintet would indicate that I must have the same "bigger is better" mentality. Despite this, I was purposeful in searching for an American style euphonium and am happy with this instrument.

[WoodSheddin]

I don't predict a reversal in this overall trend for another couple of decades, and I would predict that our next door neighbors (those who perhaps most badly need to reverse their trends) will continue on their paths of tromboniatic elephantiasis through infinity.

Been there, done that. Bought that, sold that. Playin comfortably numb in a 4/4 world again.

[Bob Mosso]

Yamaha has a great chart describing the mouthpiece sizes and playing characteristics, see

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... ES,00.html

Euphonium mouthpieces are listed with the trombones.

[manatee]

You say you need a small shank mp, but you say you have been playing on a Yamaha 321, which takes a small shank mp, unless it has been altered.

[Chuck(G)]

You say you need a small shank mp, but you say you have been playing on a Yamaha 321, which takes a small shank mp, unless it has been altered.

As far as I know (unless there have been production changes), the Yamaha 321 takes a medium-shank mouthpiece, somewhere in size between tenor and bass shank trombone mouthpieces.

Depending on the age of the King the original poster is using, it may well take a tenor-shank mouthpiece.

[ken k]

The mouthpieces King made for these horns were interesting mouthpieces. I can not think of the model number now 17 or 18 comes to mind but I am probably wrong. They had a small diameter rim probably Bach 11-ish, but it was a deep funnel style mouthpiece and they give the horn a very mellow tone. I too love these hons. I have a few of them at my school except they are the more traditional American "baritone horn" (sorry old habits don't die easily) with 3 valves and bell front. But I would just as soon play one of these for most band gigs than a bigger Euphonium. Some of them even have a 3rd valve slide pull to help with intonation.

[Gorilla Tuba]

You say you need a small shank mp, but you say you have been playing on a Yamaha 321, which takes a small shank mp, unless it has been altered.

The Yamaha 321 horns that I have occasionally played on did (do) have small receivers. However, they were not my personal instruments and I never played them on a regular basis. I am sorry for the lack of clarity in my query. Basically, I want to know if bigger mouthpieces will adversely affect the pitch or tone on these instruments.

After doing some research I have found that it may be a rhetorical question anyway because the Shilke 52D isn't readily available in small shank. Neither is the SM3.

Thanks for all of your input. I'll let you know what combination ends up working best after some trial and error.

[Lee Stofer]

Doug,
As a tubist doubling on a smaller instrument, you might want to consider trying a small-shank Kelly 6 1/2 AL or his small-shank 51D. I have found that the 51D in particular to be comfortable when I play on a school-owned Yamaha 321 during lessons with euphonium students. I think both of them sound dark-enough without sacrificing clarity or becoming tubby-sounding. I have also tried those mouthpieces on older american instruments, and have noted no problems.

[dwaskew]

I would agree with Lee on this one (as well as agreeing him on lots of other stuff, too!)

The Schilke 51D was to some degree designed with the Yamaha 321 in mind, as well as the other American, small bore, lighter sound instruments. It would be my reccomendation for this type of instrument.

dwa

[Chuck(G)]

No, Chuck--sorry. It uses a small shank.
Starin' at my 321 while I watch the Colts & Pats...
Jim

Yeah, I hauled out a receiver from a Bach 1110 out and sure enough, it's a tenor shank. I should have had another cup of coffee this morning.

Yes, you can have your tech replace the 321 recever with a Weril bass-shank part from the H980 euph with very little trouble. Looks almost identical to the Yammie part--done it myself for a friend and the owner's delighted with the result.

Bore of the YEP321 is 0.571; of the H980 is 14.5 mm, which is--0.571". Weril just had a better idea when they made the H980.

[Ryan_Beucke]

I find it weird that the 52D would not be available in small shank, since the 51D is commonly made with the small shank. If that's your preference of MP, I bet you could just call Schilke and they could make a 52D with a small shank.

To answer your real question though, using a MP like the 52D shouldn't really make the intonation bad.

[Louis]

Although I am really a tubist, I just purchased a used King American syle euphonium from Baltimore Brass (Bell up, 4 front action valves, model 2268?).

Why don't more people play these types of horns? To me it is just fun to play. ...But certainly there were good ones... as this one seems to be. Is it just a matter of current euph fashion?

I play a 2268 too. I agree that it is a lot of fun to play. It's weakness, in my opinion, is that the low register sounds thin. Tough to really open up down there on the American euphs... This might explain why the larger-bore, British-style euphs are preferred (I play one of those also). Well, partially anyway...

I think the best of these American euphs were the Conn 24I and 25I (4V Constellations, latter with upright bell). I sit next to a fellow in community band who has a silverplated 25I. I've tried it out - fabulous horn (though when he bought it it needed a leadpipe repair and the receiver was changed to small shank). With the mid-sized receiver and the right mouthpiece, the low range would probably sing a little better. Great horns. And some of them had those oval-ported short-action valves too.

But I do enjoy my 2268. Good stuff. Enjoy yours!

Baltimore Brass is a great outfit, by the way. I have a horn from there too.

Louis

[Gorilla Tuba]

After spending a solid week on this horn and trying a variety of mouthpieces I offer the following commentary:

The horn is still a blast to play. From my own stock I tried a Shilke 51D, a Wick 4AY,a newer Bach 5GB, and a really old bach 5GB. Of these mouthpieces I liked the old (New York) Bach 5GB and the 51D, but was still not really comfortable with either (remember, I am really a tuba picker). After making some calls, I did locate a Shilke 52D in small shank. Just as I had imagined, it felt like "home'" as this is what I use on my larger euphonium. Happily, it did not affect the pitch in the upper range as I had feared. In fact, it warmed up the sound while still maintaining the clarity that attracted me to this instrument.

Lessons learned: 1. the 52D in small shank is not easy to find, but they are made. 2. My bigger King 2280 will not go into retirement anytime soon, but 3. American style euphoniums are a hoot to play and appear to be a very valid choice of instrument, especially for soloing or perhaps as the top voice in a tuba/euph quartet.

Thanks for the input Dr. Askew, Joe, and everyone else. I plan on using this instrument to play Beautiful Colorado sometime in the Spring.