Identify an old Sousaphone?

[kalfalfa]

Hi,

I found an old sousaphone for $160! Couldn't resist bringing it home. I was wondering if anyone could comment on it / identify it? The only markings on it are "Lombardy" on the Bell, and the serial number (6724). The bell is 25" in diameter.

I know very little about sousaphones, I play a regular BBb in a concert band.

It seems in ok condition, all the valves and slides work fine, but it's missing a leadpipe so I can't really try it out. Does anyone know where I can buy a leadpipe for it, or do I need to bring it into the local music shop and see what they say? Even if I'm not going to play it much, I'd like it to be 'playable'.

The guy I bought it from was using it for decoration - he's not even a musician!

Thanks,
-Patrick

2011-05-21 at 20-28-12.jpg

2011-05-21 at 20-27-53.jpg

2011-05-21 at 20-27-02.jpg

[Dan Schultz]

Not American made but your repairman should be able to adapt it to utilize one of several commonly available neck and bits. Looks like one of those Besson balls on the bottom bow.

[imperialbari]

This sousaphone actually has the common American wrap to its valve loops. Not really visible there still must be 2 top crooks on the 3rd loop, which is an extremely rare feature in European made sousaphones. I only have seen this in European sousaphones from Alexander and from B&M, the latter engraved Getzen.

Orsi of Milan used to make sousaphones. At least one model was on their website 6 or 7 years ago, but there are no sousaphones to be seen now. Lombardy is a province in northwestern Italy, but I haven’t seen Orsi instruments with names after provinces.

This sousaphone looks smallish, yet not as small as the NY made Barcone Baby and Junior sousaphones. Do you have a calipers to measure the inner diameter of the 2nd valve slide?

Klaus

[kalfalfa]

Hi,

First off, thanks for all the help - this is very interesting!

You were right about the 2 top crooks in the 3rd loop:

2011-05-22 at 08-21-17.jpg

As for the inner diameter of the 2nd valve slide, is this what you mean?

2011-05-22 at 08-24-34.jpg

My callipers aren't great, but it's about 17mm. The outer diameter is 18mm.

I think I will bring it in and see what they say about a leadpipe.

Thanks,
-Patrick

[tubaforce]

Congatulations, Patrick!

The "ball" definitely says Besson, but that's about all I can go on! Maybe BRSousa will have a better idea... But, $160.00!!! and with a functioning case too? even if it needs valve work, you should have a nice Sousaphone for less than $1,000.00 when you're done! I've come pretty close, finding an Eb Besson Sousaphone with a case for $150.00, but it's a SMALL Eb, not a "normal sized" BBb!

Al

[imperialbari]

Funny about that ball, as I don’t think Besson had balls on their sousaphones. And this sousaphone is not a Besson, as that company didn’t market an American style valve block until the introduction of the Besson 995 CC tuba come 10 years ago. I am not even sure they made that 995 valve block themselves.

Point about European made sousaphones (aside from the makers mentioned in my previous posting) is, that they have valve blocks designed for top action tubas. Only the knuckles are straight and the loops are folded in ways distinctly different from the American type.

The bore is measured the right place and the result is quite likely for a smallish BBb sousaphone: 17mm is around 0.660". That bore is found in instruments from the US as well as from Europe, so that is not a determining factor.

The photos attached show a Besson BBb sousaphone.

Klaus

[SousaSaver]

This is tricky.

I want to say this is American made. European instruments tend to have nickel silver outer slide tubes. This isn't always true, but most of the time it is. The wrap and configuration of the tubing is very American. If I had to take a first look blind guess at who made this, I might guess Holton, but that goofy ball on the bottom bow isn't right for that, but I am not sure.

[kalfalfa]

Well this discussion is very interesting - any idea as to an age? I'd blind guess around 50 or 60 years just looking at it, but really I have no idea.

-Patrick

[SousaSaver]

Turns out my original hypothesis was wrong. I now believe this horn to be European and I have some proof.

This image is from Horn-u-copia.net:



It is marked Sonore. Sonore was a dealer in the Netherlands. Still don't know the actual maker, but it is probably European.

http://horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php

[jdsalas]

You might want to send a copy of the pics to Peter Adams of Horn-U-Copia.net . I think his contact info is on the website. He's pretty good about reponding to emails. Good luck!

[kalfalfa]

That's a good idea. Thanks for all the info!

-Patrick

[imperialbari]

I cannot speak for more recent years, but the Czech and GDR piston sousaphones never used to have American style valve blocks. Another trait where they differed from American instruments was about their very, very shallow spun bell flares.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

I am aware about your views on the holton sousaphones. I cannot tell you right or wrong, as I never tried one. Still the airpath architecture of the Holton valve block is the same as with all American sousaphones since 1930, maybe even since 1920.

Was it King taking a sousaphone valve block, double 3rd top crooks and all, and putting it on an older BBb tuba?

And European makers also rationalized their number of parts. British non-comp basses had identical 1st and 3rd pistons, same part number in the catalogue. Aside from B&M, Alexander, and maybe Orsi, they did not tool up for an American style valve block until the craze with American designers took off with Mr. Marzan being among the first ones.

Hence the ugly European sousaphone blocks with all exits and reentries sitting on the same side of the row of piston casings.

Klaus

[Aardvark892]

In an antique store in Fremont (Seattle) about 11 years ago, I found a very small Sousaphone. It seemed like a 3/4 size student model. It was silver, and the weird part about it is that it had no marking whatsoever anywhere on it. Not on the bell, not on the sides of the pistons, nowhere. No clue as to the maker or even what key it was in. It was so tiny I couldn't even reach the mouthpiece without turning the bell to the side, even with two extensions. It also sounded much higher in tone... if I didn't know better I'd swear it was a Euphonium Sousaphone LOL. It was in excellent playing condition, though. I wish I'd kept it.

If you're about to say "Wow, that was the extremely rare, billion dollar value Hirsbrunner/Miraphone joint SousaFrenchEuph project horn that was stolen from Switzerland in 1974!", PLEASE don't tell me. Nothing is as depressing is learning that something from your long lost past is worth some serious moola.