Jin Bao vs. Firebird

[Wyvern]

It seems the whole "smell" issue is with our european brothers? Maybe an EU regulation regarding Chinese insects? Or maybe exclusive to one importer? Just sPeculation...

I have noticed no unusual smells. Just an oily smell you get with all new tubas, German, or Chinese

[TexTuba]

I have noticed no unusual smells. Just an oily smell you get with all new tubas, German, or Chinese

I can vouch for that. When I was in JuCo back home, we had 3 brand-new 56Js. They all smelled rather badly when first opened and that odor did not go away for the better part of a week.

[Tubaguyry]

There's been a lot of buzz lately about what a great horn the Jin Bao F is. It certainly seems like a great deal to me. I know there are a lot of folks out there who aren't so keen on it, though. We've seen the posts extolling the virtues of the Jin Bao, but I'd like to hear some of the thoughts from those who DON'T like it. Here's the question for discussion:

In what way(s) is the Miraphone Firebird better than the Jin Bao 600 F? Please, no speculative answers, e.g., "It doesn't have the proven track record of Miraphone, so I think it will fall apart in a few years." I'm interested in the quantifiable. If you observe something physical in the construction of the two horns that leads you to conclude that one is superior, that is certainly relevant. Observed playing characteristics are, of course, of great importance.

Discuss!

What is your angle on this? Are you looking to buy a Firebird or a Jin Bao F? Are you simply looking to find people to trash their horns?

I am in NO WAY calling you out, but your wording on this is odd. All answers are in some way speculative. Horns, mouthpieces, etc., act differently for everyone. There are horns I've tried that I thought flat-out sucked..but they worked, rather beautifully, for their full-time operator.

The bottom line, IMHO, is this:

If you've got the dough to buy a Firebird, chances are you have the means to go play-test the horn or have some you respect do so for you. In other words, you wouldn't be asking this question. If you have the dough to buy one of these Chinese horns, buy one and enjoy it for what it is.

It would be like buying an iHome product and expecting it to be of the same quality as Klipsch or Bose. The iHome is in no way a piece of crap, but it's not top of the line.

My "angle" is simply to get some discussion going. I've played Firebirds before, but don't live close to anyone who has the Jin Bao F (AFAIK) to ask to test one. I am not in any way trying to find anyone to "trash" the Jin Bao horn. It's just that I've seen heaps of praise for them on this forum -- but not much in the way of substantiated criticism -- so I thought we'd give those folks who have a bad taste in their mouth regarding other/older brands/types of instrument a chance to sound off with their point of view.

Is not our goal to learn as much about both sides of all issues as possible? I apologize if by my original post I am perceived as "stirring the **** pot," as they say here in rural Kansas. That was not at all my intention!

[corbasse]

It seems the whole "smell" issue is with our european brothers? Maybe an EU regulation regarding Chinese insects? Or maybe exclusive to one importer? Just sPeculation...

I bought the tuba from musicstore.de, and have a strong suspicion based on their extremely competitive price and from the state the box was in they don't check the instruments before shipping but shove them straight from the container into the UPS truck. I also suspect a lot of European list members will have bought from the same source.
I believe most if not all U.S. suppliers specifically state they will thoroughly inspect all instruments before shipping, meaning the box will be opened from the moment it arrives and can get aerated till the moment it is dispatched.

[Lingon]

...I bought the tuba from musicstore.de, and have a strong suspicion based on their extremely competitive price and from the state the box was in they don't check the instruments before shipping but shove them straight from the container into the UPS truck...

Hmm, have you asked them if they inspect the instruments prior to shipping to the end customer? I have not, but the one (new) jinbao instrument I have bought from them did come in an opened and then resealed package and did not smell?! However the smelly cases I wrote about did come from several other sources, in europe, none of them in a factory sealed package though.

[muttenstrudel]

It seems the whole "smell" issue is with our european brothers? Maybe an EU regulation regarding Chinese insects? Or maybe exclusive to one importer? Just sPeculation...

I bought the tuba from musicstore.de, and have a strong suspicion based on their extremely competitive price and from the state the box was in they don't check the instruments before shipping but shove them straight from the container into the UPS truck. I also suspect a lot of European list members will have bought from the same source.
I believe most if not all U.S. suppliers specifically state they will thoroughly inspect all instruments before shipping, meaning the box will be opened from the moment it arrives and can get aerated till the moment it is dispatched.

Musicstore was the source I received the Jinbao from. I agree with your suspicion that the box hasn't been opened before they shipped it. There's absolutely no reason why a dealer should send a broken instrument. Perhaps just saving money and having some "casualties" among the forwarded instruments.

Regards,

Uwe

[muttenstrudel]

And just be assured: The smell of solvents was breathtaking. I left the instrument open on a stand for a couple of days but I still started to feel sick after playing the tuba for like 15 minutes. Add a scratchy 4th valve, and so we never got to be friends.

[Ace]

And just be assured: The smell of solvents was breathtaking. I left the instrument open on a stand for a couple of days but I still started to feel sick after playing the tuba for like 15 minutes. Add a scratchy 4th valve, and so we never got to be friends.

I had a similar experience. My first Chinese tuba, purchased ten or so years ago from a mail-only outlet near Seattle, was a real stinker in more ways than one. The mid and high range were OK but low range was not useable. Quality of build was OK. The horn and case reeked of some obnoxious solvent odor. I put the horn in my basement for two weeks before I could get near it to give it a bath. The case never lost its odor and remained in the basement for six months before I sold it.

I have purchased several Chinese (Schiller) instruments since, and have had no problems of any kind. They make very good stuff for extremely reasonable prices. I'd like to hear more from Jonathan (Neptune) about the C/Bb four rotor tenor tuba he mentioned in a recent post.

[Wyvern]

I bought the tuba from musicstore.de, and have a strong suspicion based on their extremely competitive price and from the state the box was in they don't check the instruments before shipping but shove them straight from the container into the UPS truck. I also suspect a lot of European list members will have bought from the same source.

It is two ways of doing business. It sounds like musicstore.de work on the supermarket basis, where as from me you will get personal service, checking and chance to play test before purchase.

Thanks for mentioning musicstore.de - I was not aware of them selling JinBao and will now reference my prices against theirs, and match price if you quote them selling the same model cheaper than Wessex Tubas, although my profits are already kept to a minimum.

[bort]

This is an interesting new take on the Chinese tuba discussion... until the F's rolled along now, most of the CC and BBb options have been rivaled by USED tubas from other makers (i.e., a new Chinese tuba is sometimes only a little less than a decent used tuba). With the F tubas, for several reasons (supply?), there are few used F tubas to begin with, and even fewer used ones at the price of a NEW Chinese F tuba.

Curious to hear what other people have to say, although I'm sure it'll be the same story as before -- good-and-getting-better build quality, decent for most players, and when put side-by-side, they are certainly discernible from their German brothers.

I think you get what you pay for, and I say that not in a bad way. Shelling out $2k for *something*, I'd expect it to be pretty decent (as do Neptune, Mack tubas, Al, Matt Walters, Dave Fedderly...since they put their names behind these). I'm sure you get your money's worth with them. It's just that for $10k, a Firebird should look/sound/feel like it's worth that much. And to me, it does.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
Yes, I sell JinBao's! My local Community College has a beautiful Firebird sitting in their instrument closet!this was the 1st. F Tuba I've spent any serious time with. It has a wonderful, warm, singing tone, untill played below the staff! I found the C to be especially "farty"!!! Intonation depends on one's ear and alternate fingerings! I've heard Petrushka's are spot on, in comparison, but have not had one in my hands! The JinBao 600 destroys the Firebird below the staff!!! Low range has EEb quality! Intonation demands the same attention as the Firebird, with the latter being closer on 4th. line F, but still wide. Bottom line is IF I were also a Miraphone Dealer, AND you just had to have your 1st. F, I would steer you towards the JinBao(at 1/4 the profit)! You could trade the JinBao in later on one of my hypothetical Miraphones if you wished...And I do play check all my Tubas unless asked not to! I have not encountered any unusual smells as of yet!
Al

[cjk]

...

I think you get what you pay for, and I say that not in a bad way. Shelling out $2k for *something*, I'd expect it to be pretty decent (as do Neptune, Mack tubas, Al, Matt Walters, Dave Fedderly...since they put their names behind these). I'm sure you get your money's worth with them. It's just that for $10k, a Firebird should look/sound/feel like it's worth that much. And to me, it does.

I just checked the Dillon and Baltimore brass websites. Unless I'm missing something, neither appears to be selling Chinese F tubas. Both sell the 186 CC copy and several BBbs.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
There are only 3 sellers of the JinBao F in America, and only one of them's been getting $3,700.00+ for them!
Al

[bort]

To clarify, I was only trying to say that I think buying a Chinese F tuba is probably a similar experience to another key of Chinese tuba. I have only tried a few CC's and BBb's.

[Wyvern]

Having just toured around a Chinese tuba factory having previously visited ones in Germany (Meinl-Weston + B&S) I do not see a huge difference in production methods, or materials used. When I went around the parts store I picked out water keys, valve caps and various other components to inspect. They all felt and looked much the same as those used in Germany.

Where the Chinese sometimes fail is in assembly and finishing I am sure largely due to less skilled workers. No doubt as time goes on and their skills increase, the Chinese made tubas will get better and better. I would not be surprised if in 10 years JinBao will be equal in quality to Yamaha as with lots of things in China they are on a rapid upwards path.

Your best chance for the present of getting trouble free Chinese tuba is to buy from dealer who cares and checks each before despatch

[charvette1000]

Most of these companies like Thomann, musicstore, dv247.com etc. promise or give the impression that they inspect the instruments before shipping.
No they don't. Not at least guitars. I have ordered new guitars (cheap and expensive) from all the mentioned companies and every single one has arrived well packed and taped and never opened after leaving the factory. And I have returned several instruments because of the quality issues.

...I bought the tuba from musicstore.de, and have a strong suspicion based on their extremely competitive price and from the state the box was in they don't check the instruments before shipping but shove them straight from the container into the UPS truck...

Hmm, have you asked them if they inspect the instruments prior to shipping to the end customer? I have not, but the one (new) jinbao instrument I have bought from them did come in an opened and then resealed package and did not smell?! However the smelly cases I wrote about did come from several other sources, in europe, none of them in a factory sealed package though.

[tubaforce]

Always check the tape!
I know Mack, Neptune, and myself always test our horns before shipping them out! I'm reasonably sure Matt Walters and a few other's do too! "Caveat Emptor" !

Al

[corbasse]

And just be assured: The smell of solvents was breathtaking. I left the instrument open on a stand for a couple of days but I still started to feel sick after playing the tuba for like 15 minutes. Add a scratchy 4th valve, and so we never got to be friends.

Mine did stink for a week or so, and the smell permeated the room where I put it for the first few days. The smell reminded me of the insecticides they spray around on intercontinental flights, but it could also be the glue used in constructing the case.
I'll start to thoroughly test the horn today (had a small "exam" yesterday on BBb so I had to concentrate on that before) I still have some time left to decide if the instrument is good enough to keep or to send it back.
[Edit]I just played a good 40 min. on it and I must say I feel slightly heady, and not in the usual too much oxygen from blowing hard way... [/edit]

It is two ways of doing business. It sounds like musicstore.de work on the supermarket basis, where as from me you will get personal service, checking and chance to play test before purchase.
Thanks for mentioning musicstore.de - I was not aware of them selling JinBao and will now reference my prices against theirs, and match price if you quote them selling the same model cheaper than Wessex Tubas, although my profits are already kept to a minimum.

Musicstore is clearly a sort of musical Aldi*, what we in Dutch call a "dozenschuiver" (box-shover, all they do is take a box from storage and shove it over the counter into your hands). Their return policy is based on the customer doing the QA, nothing wrong with that as long as the customer is knowlegeable enough and the merchandise good enough.

I already was under the impression you went into the tuba selling business to provide a service to tuba players, not to move to a large villa in Buckinghamshire next year. Because of their pricing I was wondering wether the musicstore F's maybe were b-stock, or they ordered them in very large quantities. I'm looking forward to see for myself what you have in stock this summer.


* for our non-European friends: Aldi is a supermarket chain focussing on selling B- and C-brands at extremely low prices. The pallets of goods are simply rolled into the store and the customers have to unpack the pallets themselves.

[MartyNeilan]

I still remember when I first got my Yamaha 621F. It was in Yamaha's very compact thin walled hardcase. Upon opening it up, there was a very distinctive smell, kind of like that "new car smell" but a little more obnoxious.
Honestly, I don't care what the case of the clones smell like. Just leave it open for a few days to air out if necessary, preferably outside if you have that option. When I had the very decent 186 clone, I sold the case; I had no personal need for a case that large that is still not flightworthy (IMHO.) I will most likely bag my next tuba shortly upon receiving it.
I never noticed any significant unusual odor with the tuba itself.

[Wyvern]

I already was under the impression you went into the tuba selling business to provide a service to tuba players, not to move to a large villa in Buckinghamshire next year. Because of their pricing I was wondering wether the musicstore F's maybe were b-stock, or they ordered them in very large quantities. I'm looking forward to see for myself what you have in stock this summer.

musicstore.de either get their stock very cheap one way or another, or make little profit. I would hardly make a profit selling at those prices, but would still rather match price than customer go there with tubas supplied getting the Chinese products a bad name.

No, I don't expect to get rich selling tubas, but hope to provide good service to tuba players (hopefully making new friends), provide work satisfaction for my Chinese wife, maybe eventually initiate new models that people want to market and make a modest supplementary income.