helicon brand and possible replacement parts?

[fairweathertuba]

This helicon, that is engraved "Liberty" looks a lot like a Conn Wonder to me, but recently a repairman was saying that it was probably some other brand ( that he couldn't specify ) So I am putting it up for the TNFJ to dither over. It was painted when I bought it. I had the paint removed and the 1st valve slide re-worked so that it's been shortened and now is movable with the left hand.

The bore on this instrument is appx. .750 ( as measured with a tape measure ) Serial number is F589XX. Bell is 20"

With paint.

Paint removed!

Also, still to be looked at are the valve caps and 1 valve stem and button. The valve caps are badly cross threaded and possibly one cap and definitely a valve stem and finger button have been replaced with non original parts.

Offending valve caps

So, if it is indeed a Conn, I'm wondering if I can use some sousaphone valve caps and valve stems for replacement, or possibly also replace the valves themselves as there may be damage to the threads in the valve as someone has soldered the valve stems into place.

The instrument is actually playable now, but yes still could use a lot of sprucing up.

[fairweathertuba]

Yea, it's probably a Conn stencil - those valve caps look the same as on my jumbo, even the finger buttons look similar.

Which finger button? Now looking at the pic. it seems there are three different ones! Numbers two and three look roughly the same though.

[SousaSaver]

It's a Conn. Without a doubt.

You should be able to use parts for a 14K/36K for it. Valve caps and buttons should be exchangeable.

[SousaSaver]

Valve button 2 is a universal Conn button. Valve button number 1 looks like a holton, but I am not sure...

[fairweathertuba]

It's a Conn. Without a doubt.

You should be able to use parts for a 14K/36K for it. Valve caps and buttons should be exchangeable.

That's great, what about the actual valves; are they also interchangeable?

[fairweathertuba]

I probably will get a valve job on this instrument within a year, they aren't that leaky but are on the edge. The thing is the valve stems are soldered in and the first valve stem is definitely from some other instrument. Maybe it's not a big deal, but I feel the solders may come loose and the stems might just not have any thread in them, oh well I suppose I need something to obsess over.

[toobagrowl]

Valve button 2 is a universal Conn button. Valve button number 1 looks like a holton, but I am not sure...

I don't think the first valve button is a Holton. The old Holton tuba buttons are like shrunken-down UMI/King tuba buttons.



@fairweathertuba.

You were right from the beginning - there are 3 diff. buttons on your horn. The first valve stem is also diff. from the other two (slightly fatter). And I think what you have could be a Nuss "Liberty" helicon:




Nuss
Harrisburg, PA
USA
-



The Nuss twin brothers, Anton and Charles, emigrated to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in 1905. The Nuss Musical Manufactory, located in Harrisburg Pa. was established in 1910. They pioneered the use of non-traditional alloys and seamless drawn tubing. Nuss instruments were known for meticulous workmanship.

Tradenames included Supreme and Liberty



http://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Eb Nuss "Liberty" helicon:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?se ... trument%3D" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank"Helicon"+and+maker%3D"Nuss"

[Frank Ortega]

Those Ferrels are definitely Pan American. Although Pan Americans are VERY similar to Conns, there are some distinct differences in fit, finnish, and sound. IMHO.

Frank Ortega

[fairweathertuba]

Here's the total inscription on the bell.

Liberty
C.K.C CO.
1011 McGee Street
Kansas City
MO
U.S.A


So it is actually a Conn but made (or at least distributed) in Kansas City. I'm assuming the C.K.C mean Conn, Kansas City.

I'll have to admit the Nuss helicon made me look a few times, they do appear to have a lot of similar features.

[ken k]

I would say it was a conn stencil horn of some kind. My guess would be the CKC Co, of kansas City MO contracted with Conn to build a helicon for them. I doubt it was made in KC. It looks alot like my Pan american



The Nuss horn is an Eb helicon notice the "fake" brace over the shoulder. It is not a full wrap around horn like yours.

ken k

[fairweathertuba]

Wow ken, your horn is in excellent shape. Mine on the other hand has suffered and sort of recovered from serious mishandling over the years.

Here's an interesting historical bit on Conn Kansas City, it was an outlet of Conn. The article is from The Music Trade Review Dec. 1924

http://mis.mclemore.com/mtr/MTR-1924-79 ... 24-115.pdf

So perhaps "liberty" was somewhat like "Pan American" a cheaper version of a Conn that is sold to schools or other institutions low on funds. The guy I bought the horn from bought it from a high school in Safford AZ in the mid to late 50's if I remember him correctly. So, it probably got knocked around in a high school for a good 30 years or so before he got ahold of it. He also said he could kick himself for not buying the other one that was there at the same time.

[toobagrowl]

The Nuss horn is an Eb helicon notice the "fake" brace over the shoulder. It is not a full wrap around horn like yours.

ken k

Yes, I already mentioned that in my post. I was posting that as an example
Fairweathertuba's helicon is probably a Conn stencil as he later gave info from the bell inscriptions. But I was amazed how identical Nuss horns are to Conn-made Pan Americans and Continental Colonials.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
Not sure where you're located, but be sure the tech. you choose for your valve refit is equipped to address the mechanical issues you mentioned, such as stripped threads. There are a number of good techs on his forum who have the tools and talent to make those valves better than new, and who address the issues your old girl is bound to have! Congratulations on finding such a great old horn!

Al

[Frank Ortega]

I also believe that Pan American would engrave the name of your store on it if you wanted to.
I have one marked, Hoboken, NJ, and no one ever made instruments in Hoboken, as far as I know.

-Frank

[fairweathertuba]

The Nuss horn is an Eb helicon notice the "fake" brace over the shoulder. It is not a full wrap around horn like yours.

ken k

Yes, I already mentioned that in my post. I was posting that as an example
Fairweathertuba's helicon is probably a Conn stencil as he later gave info from the bell inscriptions. But I was amazed how identical Nuss horns are to Conn-made Pan Americans and Continental Colonials.

Maybe the Nuss Bros. bought parts from Conn; or maybe the just patterned after Conn, who knows!? Fooling around on the web for 10 minutes only brought up the Hornucopia mention of their music instrument business.