ID this helicon?

[ghmerrill]

I am eyeballing this helicon with the thought of making an offer on it. But I'm not at all sure what it is.

The owner originally offered it as a "B helikon", but it certainly does not look like a BBb horn to me -- just not enough tubing. It looks -- to me -- pretty much like an F. But a 3-valve F? How useful would that be? Is it possible it's an Eb? Is it possible it's a Bb (bariton?) -- are there such things?

It's a Josef Lidl instrument and appears to be in fantastic shape, which the owner says as well. He now admits he has no idea what the key of the instrument is. Anyone want to offer an informed opinion on this? At this point, whether I decide to try to buy it or not, I'm really curious.

Dimensions (according to the owner, I don't know exactly where the height and width measurements were taken) ... Height: 40 in (100 cm), Width: 17 in (45 cm), Bell diameter: 13 in (33 cm). Seems pretty small.

helikon.JPG

[ghmerrill]

This is similar to the instrument described in the TubeNet thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39572&start=0#p345793" target="_blank" target="_blank, "Unusual Helicon (on German eBay)", but appears to be in much better shape and to have less tube to it.

The auction has eight days to go, and currently the bidding is quite low. It will probably go up at the end to a level I don't want to deal with. I'm attracted to it for two reasons. First, I'd eventually like to get a smaller horn than my Cerveny for things like playing in a Dixieland group. But I don't think a 3-valve F would be especially good for that since it would seen to provide something similar to a trombone and leave out the low range. Second, this instrument appears to be in such super shape.

It looks really nice, although I'm not sure where I'd be able to keep it. I fear my wife would notice it pretty quickly and complain about the space it's taking up (plus "You bought ANOTHER tuba?" ... Piano players -- they have no feeling for this sort of thing. But wait ... I could keep it under the piano!)

[Donn]

I happen to have an engineer's scale at hand - one of those triangular cross section things with 6 different scales inscribed on the edges - and using the bell width as a reference, and the closest scale match vs. the image on my computer screen ...

I believe the 40 inch height is along the axis defined by the bell section - i.e., height with the bell pointing straight up.

The total length is F, to me. I just made the crudest guess, and would encourage you to try for something a little more rigorous somehow, but I believe you're looking for 12 feet, I made 11. And helicon in G seems unlikely.

Don't forget that it needs to suit your physical proportions, along with all the other issues we'd normally be thinking of with an antique tuba. If it fits, it looks pretty comfortable, and light; if it doesn't fit, not much you can do.

[ghmerrill]

Yes, I had done an even cruder dimensional-to-length translation and come up with pretty much the same thing. If it were an Eb, I would definitely be interested, and of course I'd love to have a nice 5- or 6-valve F (though I can't imagine ever affording that). But a 3-valve F? Plus, as you point out, the liklihood that I would actually fit into it (and be able to get it off without a hacksaw).

If I could get it cheap enough, I might still go for it since I could probably sell it around here pretty easily. But in the interim, I would encourage anyone else reading this thread to bid on it if they're interested.

[OldsRecording]

I'm wondering if it is a high-pitch horn (I would guess F) and the oddly-shaped tuning is to bring it down to pitch.

[Dan Schultz]

This one is pitched in Eb.

[imperialbari]

Before the pitch reform of 1920 (or so) the Bohemian (military) band pitch was around A=466Hz, quite exactly a semitone above A=440Hz. The the straight branches of the main tuning slide crook look like they each would equal half the 2nd slide. Eb and Db helicons have been seen, but the mainstream pitches were F and BBb.

Unless you can do very skilled repair work yourself, you are in for costs not proportional to even the most optimal outcome, playingwise.

I have not investigated this auction, but the photo looks like coming from a certain Polish seller, who does some presentations not revealing any deeper knowledge.

I have imported several instruments from the US and Canada to Denmark. The shipping and the taxes are prohibitive unless the instrument is special. This given helicon hardly is worth the efforts and the costs. What could it be used for? Not really for carrying a bass line on its own even in a brass quintet.

And no, I am not scaring you off from this one, because I want it myself.

Klaus

[ghmerrill]

Klaus: Thanks. I had come to pretty much the same conclusions as well.