A Great Argument for BBb in orchestra

[Tom]

Just a general comment...not directed to any particular person posting in this thread:

I think it's funny to watch folks on tubenet get so excited about hearing or seeing their favorite tuba player using an instrument other than what they've traditionally come to be associated with which (at least on tubenet) is usually assumed to be a 6/4 CC tuba.

Most of the players referred to on tubenet are pros playing in major US orchestras. In some cases, their orchestras own instruments for their use, meaning (like bloke said), they play things because they have access to them. Still, most players on that level own many tubas so that they have options for themselves and select the best equipment to suit the task at hand. So, I don't think anyone should find it so shocking that ______(insert favorite player here)______ decided to play a particular tuba in a particular situation.

We talk about these guys playing BBb tubas over CC tubas as if they've got to sit down with the Rubank Elementary Method and learn the fingerings. We're talking about some of the finest orchestral tuba players in the world. As DP said, these guys can play anything without a second thought, so it's funny that we're so impressed when they can play Meistersinger on F tuba or play Mahler, Bruckner, or Prokofiev or a BBb tuba and still have a "world class sound" in a world class orchestra.

[NDSPTuba]

I still think the whole BBb/CC thing is in tuba players heads. That is, being able to really hear a difference. What most probably hear is a BAT/Kaiser difference and not a BBb/CC difference. Being that I for the majority of my player career was a horn player, I can tell you that I never gave a second thought to what key tuba the tuba player was playing, I don't even think I was consciously knew that there where several keys of tuba to choose from.

Bloke is correct about the Horn player putting down a horn that played as out of tune as most tubas do. I would "hand" tune a note if I found myself a little out of sorts embouchure wise, otherwise if all was going to plan I never had to worry about playing in tune like I do on tuba.

I played a concert this past weekend in a good hall and my wife was in the audience and she commented to me that she could discern my sound from the other tuba players( HB1, 188, and a 2155). At first it concerned me quite a bit, thinking "oh @h!t, I was sticking out". But she mentioned that I sound like me. That I even sound like I did when I played horn professionally, it was just a certain quality to my tone and articulation that is uniquely me and she recognizes it. Know I was the only one playing a BAT, so that dark sound she heard can be partly attributed to that. It brings me to my point ( finally I know ), we will sound like we sound and the key of the instrument ( contra to contra ) won't change it as much as it is being portrayed here i this discussion. I think a more accurate discussion about sound difference would be between rotary and piston.

[J.c. Sherman]

All good points, gentle posters.

Clarifying, I like pointing out exceptions to the "rules" (which are - happily - breaking down). Many of us own a lot of plumbing (I just got a new-to-me BBb yesterday!) for just such reasons. If you're from my generation, most thought Jacobs was the one and only sound to match, and there were sincere efforts to fabricate hundreds of copies of his instrument for decades for just that reason. There still are! Happily, I studied with an exception to his example, and as that same instructor embraced my then-weird predilection for bass tubas, I've felt pretty happy picking horns based on my musical concepts.

Like it or not, when I go to an audition, I see a great deal of matched or nearly matched plumbing and hear nearly matched sound concepts. I'm not sure I fully understand why, as everyone on this thread proselytizes the benefits of NOT playing the same stuff, or “CC sucks,” or “it doesn't matter,” or...

The truth is, there is a sameness in our education churning out similar players in similar styles. The exceptions seem to be the winners quite often. That brings a smile to my face and encourages the very special benefit we have in playing a relatively "new" instrument - we can still invent ourselves and our voice. While Yasu playing a BBb was normal for the continent, it's still not de rigueur for the US. This is a way of saying "You can give it a try!" There's no right or wrong tuba, necessarily. There's a happy conductor, a happy player, and it's only wrong if it's for another instrument (ophicleide, cimbasso, etc >: )

J.c.S.

[joh_tuba]

bloke, tubas dont just play themselves in tune. they have to be played in tune (active verb)

...which is one of the reasons that you bought a 5450, which is - in its size range - arguably the easiest-to-play-in-tune of all CC tubas.



ya know, to a top-drawer bassoonist with a top-drawer bassoon (as whacky a contraption as that is) 5 cents is a BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. To tuba players, 5 cents is "in tune".

bloke "I like to play REALLY out-of-tune tubas REALLY in-tune to demonstrate my 'manhood'."

The rotor PT6 also fits your intonation hypothesis. One of the rare models of horn that people have a habit of winning the job on and then continue to use even when new choices become available.

I would argue that the PT6 is the biggest commonly available tuba that still offers acceptable intonation(excellent actually) while still offering a '6/4-esque' sound quality that doesn't sacrifice clarity(unlike the Thor which is nothing like a BAT in terms of sound quality), and an easy response in all registers.

Just to throw a new monkey wrench into this conversation, anyone agree that the real concept behind the Thor was to create a CC that had a Kaiser BBb sound?

[J.c. Sherman]

Just to throw a new monkey wrench into this conversation, anyone agree that the real concept behind the Thor was to create a CC that had a Kaiser BBb sound?

I think it was meant to sound like something from my tool shed...

J.c.S.

[BuzzedB]

I had the same experience as Doc with Dave Kirk and his Alex and Nirschl. And even though he was playing two opposite horns one being a bass and the other a contra he still sounded like himself just in a little different of a spectrum.

[toobagrowl]

Tommy Johnson had no trouble playing his Kaiser Mirafone 190 CC. Alexander Von Puttkamer has no trouble playing his Kaiser Meinl-Weston 197 "Hilgers" BBb. Of course, these guys were/are the best of the best.

The Mirafone 190 and M-W 197 are supposedly known for pitch problems or being "hard to play". But the sounds these tubas produce are far superior, IMO, than any of the new point-and-shoot/easy-to-play tubas.


too "I'd take a Mirafone 190 or M-W 197 ANY DAY over a PT-6 or M-W Thor" ba

[J.c. Sherman]

too "I'd take a Mirafone 190 or M-W 197 ANY DAY over a PT-6 or M-W Thor" ba

Amen - 1st time I tried a 190 I couldn't believe anything could sound so lovely!

[tbn.al]

Several years ago I took my newly acquired Ernst David Bielefelder, a very small .690 bore rotary BBb, to a dress rehearsal to let Michael Moore give me his impression. He put down his CC and played the whole dress on the little BBb. The horn sounded wonderful. Rich full sound, spot on intonation, excellent response over the entire range. After rehearsal I took the little horn home with me and it immediately began to sound like me again. For a couple of hours as I sat by Michael playing my bass trombone, I actually convinced myself that I had stolen the horn of the century from Lee Stofer. Now that was a neat little BBb, but in my hands nothing really special. A pro can make a garden hose sound good.

[MartyNeilan]

Another example of good tuba playing (that happens to be on a BBb tuba).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT6yuyULvDs

Start at around 1:30 for the beefy parts. Herr von Puttkamer has become one of my favorite tuba players over the last year or so, and this is a great example of his low tuba chops.

Boys and girls, the word for today is PROJECTION

[Rick Denney]

Maybe pros are just regular guys like the rest of us, and like to play different instruments for the sheer fun of it. Yeah, they are careful to put out the required product, but maybe they just like honking the Shosty 5 on a Bb because it's just the fun way to play the Shosty 5 for them.

The notion that they analyze things the way we analyze things is what rightly earned a PFFT from Dale.

Rick "thinking even pros might sometimes be impressed by a tuba that is big and shiny" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

Just to throw a new monkey wrench into this conversation, anyone agree that the real concept behind the Thor was to create a CC that had a Kaiser BBb sound?

I think it was meant to sound like something from my tool shed...
J.c.S.

YES!! I don't care who says it was based on what, the sound is a decided BLEH. It -might- record well but I don't like how it sounds in person.
Also, for clarity's sake, I don't care who plays what for whatever reason, but fkwit my choice of instrument if I don't mess with yours and be prepared to be roared at. ****, no one in any musical realm seems to understand this- don't laugh at my horn and I won't laugh at your horn (of COURSE, YOUR realm is INFALLIBLE!!11!!11 ).

[EdFirth]

Someone needs to give this guy his slide whistle back and send him back to his sideshow.Ed

[toobagrowl]

I'd like to try those B&S GR 51 and GR 55 BBb tubas The bells on those have a more Meinl-Weston look to them (small fast flare at end of bell; fatter throat). Maybe it's just me, but those tubas look similar except for the bell size & flare, yet the GR 55 is listed as 5/4 and the GR 51 is listed as 4/4


Scroll down to see these tubas:
http://www.palaciodatuba.com/English/Tubas_Sib_B&S.htm" target="_blank

[Wyvern]

Maybe it's just me, but those tubas look similar except for the bell size & flare, yet the GR 55 is listed as 5/4 and the GR 51 is listed as 4/4

Not you. Not an illusion. Just marketing. Good eye...

The problem is no agreed definition of what makes a 4/4, 5/4, etc.

B&S seem to be going by bell diameter at least in that case, but my experience is bell throat size is more relevant to the breath of tone than either bell diameter, or valve bore - yet bell throat is a measurement which is never stated.

FWIW My observations are that an average 4/4 has bell throat about 15" circumference, 5/4 17" and 6/4 19-20"

[MikeMason]

I always think to myself"how much beer would that sucker hold"? Total volume.not just bell...

[Ben]

Just got back from hearing Mr. Yasuhito Sugiyama perform with Cleveland. Bruckner 8 was fantastic. I wish I had been able to attend Thursday's performance of #7. The orchestra was very tight. I was suprised that the wagner tuben did not have the most glaring of intonation errors (fl & clar). All in all great live performance. I am more familiar with the Hass version, so the ending of mvt 1 was a slight surprise for me. Kudos to Mr. Sugiyama for beautiful playing in mvt. 3 - great stuff with the tuben. Mvt rocked...

'Nuf said. I don't care what Mr. Sugiyama was playing, if it was his Fafner (sure looked like it), he played the part to a T.