Big vs small tubas

[Chadtuba]

I've been practicing Tundra's 345 for the last month or so as he had my 983. The 345 has such a rich and wonderful sound, the sound that I hear in my head for a tuba. I picked up my 983 to practice for awhile and it just did not sound like I remembered it did or should. I was really very dis-enhearted with it. I played the 983 for a bit then went back and forth with the 983 and the 345. The 345 was easier to play, sounded richer and fuller, and I had a much easier time with the high range despite it being so large and a 4th lower. Has anybody else ever experienced this or have words of wisdom?

I'm trying to find the cash to buy the 345 but in the mean time I've got both horns and will enjoy practicing them both as much as I can.

[toobagrowl]

Those big old Holton 345 tubas are agile for their size. Sounds like you just got acclimated to it over the last month.

[Chadtuba]

I defintiely did get acclimated to the 345. I played two gigs with it and both worked very well with the big beast. A 40-50 piece concert band with me as the only tuba, no problem carrying the band at this one. One concert with a 10 piece brass group. The 345 was agile and nimble enough to not overpower the ensemble, but when I kicked it into high gear on the solo part of Beer Barrel Polka all I could say was wow! The folks in the small ensemble all loved the sound of the 345 compared to the 983 (used it with the same group the month prior at a graduation gig).

I just don't know what to do now. Do I keep both horns (assuming I can raise the funds for the 345) and work out the kinks on both (I'm not a pro player and will never make the money to justify two such horns) or do I accept the 345 as the sound I've searched for and sell the 983 to pay for the 345? I just don't know. In the mean time, back to the practice room. Gonna spend some time on the 983 and try to re-acclimate to it.

[toobagrowl]

I am tempted to say go for the 345 based on what you wrote. But I think you need to give it more time and ponder and go with your gut.

[Wyvern]

I do not have experience of the 345, but can say through my Neptune that playing a large (BAT) tuba is addictive and uniquely satisfying! There is a depth, breath and richness of tone which a smaller tuba can never fully replicate. Such a large tuba provides the ideal foundation to a concert band - however can make small ensemble and solo playing more difficult.

I would suggest definitely getting the 345 as that is the sound in your head and now experienced you will never be satisfied with just the smaller tuba - but try and retain the 983 (or replace with a cheaper bass tuba), as only having a BAT is limiting

[BAtlas]

When playing my 983 versus my Gronitz PCK I have noticed that the high range is easier on the gronitz. I have since attributed this to the added resistance of the 983. (although I do find my high notes on the 983 are more stable).

[Rick Denney]

When I play the Holton, I'm looking for that broad, growling, encompassing sound. Breadth is the objective, with a good dose of power thrown in. Big Holtons are among the best tubas ever made for that purpose. They have their flaws, to be sure, but that ain't one of them.

But I also own smaller tubas, for when I want a sound that is more focused and directed. Quintet playing is an example--the breadth of the Holton sound would dominate a quintet, and just sound too different from the other instruments. It would sound like a string bass taking the 'cello part in a string quartet--it could be done, but it just wouldn't be right. In a quintet, I use an F tuba, either my B&S played with some control or my Yamaha. The Yamaha has an even more focused sound than the B&S, making it the preferred choice for when I need to emulate a trombone for a baroque sound.

There are times when I use the B&S F tuba in concert band, too. We play a lot of transcriptions of orchestral music from the 19th century, some of which have two tuba parts. The higher part is often just put there to keep the Eb tuba player from running out of valves, but then when that was the case, it was considered normal for a band to have both bass and contrabass tubas in the section. For me, I play the upper part on F tuba with the idea of creating the 19th-century orchestral tuba sound, while the rest of the section creates the string-bass sound. This provides a similar distinction between the solo clarity of the orchestral bass tuba and the dense section sound of the basses. The Holton is not the best instrument to pull off that effect, but it makes a really good instrument for that string-bass effect. I suspect I've used the F in situations like this perhaps half a dozen times in 10 years, so it's certainly not an every-day occurrence.

And a Holton would be too enveloping in a tuba quartet, in my view. It would make it that much harder for the ensemble to avoid a woofy, muddy sound. Here, a 4/4 contrabass tuba on the low part and a bass tuba on the upper tuba part keeps the sound from becoming so muddy.

So, if you can afford it, keep both. There is a warning, though. Good Holtons are not thick on the ground. You cannot count on finding another one easily. It's never good to be financially irresponsible, and only you can assess your situation in that regard, but don't underestimate the rarity of the opportunity you have. Holtons represent one of the least expensive ways to get into a really big tuba of good playing characteristics. It's a lot easier to find a 983 than a good Holton.

Rick "who waited many years for the opportunity of a big Holton to come along" Denney

[Lew]

I am also not a pro, but have a big horn and a smaller horn. If you can afford it it's nice to have both available. My big horn is a King 1291 (4 rotary valve with a recording bell and an aftermarket upright bell) and my small horn is a Besson 983. I use the big horn for concert band when I am the only tuba player or we have a small section relative to the size of the band. When there are a bunch of us in the back row I use the smaller horn to help brighten up the sound a little, although the 983 is a big small horn. I also have used the 983 in quintets or other small ensembles when I believed that one of my large horns would have the potential to overpower the group.

If you can only afford one then the decision should be based on the majority of the playing that you plan to do. A 345 is hard to come by and if there is a good one available to you at a reasonable price, and you plan to primarily play with large ensembles then you should seriously consider going for it. That said, I would think that the 983 would be a little more versatile if you do a significant amount of small ensemble playing.

(after re-reading what Rick had to say I guess I am saying about the same thing although probably not as eloquently.)

[bort]

The sound in your head is really hard to ignore... and not just that it's to ignore, but it's counterproductive to force your brain to work (consciously or not) to hear something else.

My story... I borrowed a Miraphone 188 about 6 years ago, for a couple of weeks. I totally loved it, it was exactly what a tuba should be (to my brain). Then, for the last 6 years, I tried, bought, and sold several very fine tubas, but never a 188 (why!?). I sold them because they just weren't working out to be the best match for me and not the right kind of sound. I finally did the smart thing and got a 188... and it has been magic. I spend zero time trying to make it sound like something else, and zero effort trying to "think" about what it is. My job as a tuba player has become just that much easier.

It sounds like the 345 does that for you. Don't fight it. If you've fallen for that huge blanket of sound, you won't find it the same way in any other tuba.

If you can keep the 983, do it! It'll feel like a toy compared to the 345, and its lighter qualities as an Eb will be more apparent to you!

Ok, I'm through telling you how to spend your money. Good luck!

[Chadtuba]

If you can keep the 983, do it! It'll feel like a toy compared to the 345, and its lighter qualities as an Eb will be more apparent to you!

Ok, I'm through telling you how to spend your money. Good luck!

When I first picked up the 983 after the month on the 345 that is exactly how it felt and it felt morea and more like that going back and forth between the two. It almost felt like I was going from my 983 to my euphonium.

[Chadtuba]

I would suggest definitely getting the 345 as that is the sound in your head and now experienced you will never be satisfied with just the smaller tuba - but try and retain the 983 (or replace with a cheaper bass tuba), as only having a BAT is limiting

I am going to do everything I can to get the 345 and I would prefer to keep the 983 as well. However, it did run through my mind to possibly sell the 983 and get one of the Fletcher clones or maybe even a Yamaha 321. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks. I'll be posting "extra" stuff in the for sale section hopefully over the weekend when I can make some time to get into the garage and snap pictures and see exactly what I have.

[Wyvern]

However, it did run through my mind to possibly sell the 983 and get one of the Fletcher clones or maybe even a Yamaha 321.

Another possibility would be to get a small BBb to compliment the 345. Then easier not changing fingerings. A friend of mine in Michigan has done that using a St.Pete BBb as his 'quintet horn' while playing his collection of BIG tubas with bands as that is 'his sound'.

[Chadtuba]

However, it did run through my mind to possibly sell the 983 and get one of the Fletcher clones or maybe even a Yamaha 321.

Another possibility would be to get a small BBb to compliment the 345. Then easier not changing fingerings. A friend of mine in Michigan has done that using a St.Pete BBb as his 'quintet horn' while playing his collection of BIG tubas with bands as that is 'his sound'.

Holton 345 and Yamaha 103 or 621 would be a good match-up if I decided to go this route. The school I was teaching at the last few years had a 103 that I played quite a bit (small rural school with no tuba players) and really enjoyed it for a fun little horn. I also played a 621 for about a year in a quinted and absolutely loved it, but these are rare to find.

[Bob Kolada]

Ever play a Weril Chad? I do think a custom BB cimbasso would be a nice complement to a Bb BAT.

Big horns are popular amongst a lot of people, but the clarity, sound, and ease of play always draw me back to smaller horns.

[Chadtuba]

Ever play a Weril Chad? I do think a custom BB cimbasso would be a nice complement to a Bb BAT.

Big horns are popular amongst a lot of people, but the clarity, sound, and ease of play always draw me back to smaller horns.

I'd be interested in the 4 valved front Weril based off of the reviews here that I've read, but as of yet, I've never gotten my hands on one. I do have a lead on a 621 BBb from an old friend, trombone player who doesn't play his tuba anymore, so now all I have to do is decide just what to do. No matter what, I am going to try to permanantely aquire the 345. Just not sure if I'll keep the 983 or go a different route all together.

[GC]

No one tuba can do it all. I love the 345 and the ones I've played have been great instruments. But they can't fit places where a smaller horn is called for, and a small horn can't sub decently for a BAT. Personally I like large horns no matter what the key, and it might be what works best for you, too, considering some of the comments you've made here. Even so, the 983 is a good horn for small-group work, and it would compliment a 345 nicely in a stable of horns. If you can get a big Eb or F for small-group work, fine. But the 983 is amazingly versatile, and I wouldn't switch away if you can't find a reasonably priced big Eb or F. With a good 345 and a good 983, you have the best of both worlds.

[Chadtuba]

With a good 345 and a good 983, you have the best of both worlds.

This was my original intent and still my hope (assuming I can purchase the 345). My 983 has been my only horn for the last 5-6 years and has served me well. I plan to spend more time on both horns over the coming weeks while putting together the funds for the 345 so we'll see what happens. If I can't get the 345, for whatever reason, then I'll still be happy with my 983 and will continue to play it until I have funds available and find another good BAT at the same time.

[Rick Denney]

I do think a custom BB cimbasso would be a nice complement to a Bb BAT

Glad you laughed, but even so, people might take this foolishness seriously. There are not many playing situations for amateurs in which a cimbasso would be acceptable at all, let alone appropriate, despite the cost of one of even middle quality.

Rick "sometimes wondering what the aliens are whispering in Bob's ear" Denney