Quick question on valved/rotary Trombones and Euphoniums.

[Jaks]

Just asking, i've never really heard a piston/ rotary valved trombone play before, how does it differ in sound and range feel and timbre with the 'traditional' bone with just slide or slide + 1 rotary?

No offence, but i'm just clearing my doubts on this one, but would this http://tinyurl.com/454tn5v" target="_blank" target="_blank be slidely redundant? (pun intended) If it isn't , then how does it differ from a marching trombone?

Also just asking, does a 3+1 rotary Euphonium w/o compensating system make sense to you? Or is it alrd in existence?

Thanks beforehand.

[Doug Elliott]

In the right hands, a valve bone doesn't sound much different from a slide. But at louder volumes it gets "brassy" quicker than a slide, and the sound of articulation on valves is definitely different than on a slide where you mostly tongue every note and you control the sound with how you tongue.

Valve bones as pictured are usually small bore; I don't think anybody makes large bore. Marching horns come in larger bores and sound a bit different.

[imperialbari]

I am quite sure I once saw documentation a compensating 3+1RV oval Bariton from a smaller European maker. But sadly I didn’t save the information and memory doesn’t hold the name any longer.

I have piston and rotary valve trombones. The rotary models in general have the wider bell flares of the older German slide trombones. They are somewhat mellower in sound. Some very old Danish military valve trombones have very open bell bows, stacks, and throats so that they more sound like the oval Tenorhorn, which also suited their use on the old equivalent of current euphonium/baritone band parts.

Klaus

[bort]

Here are some videos with rotary trombones. I think it sounds brighter, and has the benefit of doing "valve stuff", but loses the ability to do "slide stuff." So maybe good for German/Austrian music, but bad for New Orleans jazz.

http://youtu.be/j8R-el5ZVsE" target="_blank

http://youtu.be/LHl_Ic2foDU" target="_blank

[Kevin Hendrick]

Also just asking, does a 3+1 rotary Euphonium w/o compensating system make sense to you? Or is it alrd in existence?

Here's one:

http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4574

[Bob Kolada]

Latszch makes a front action 3 and 1 comp rotary euph.

[tuba.bobby]

Also just asking, does a 3+1 rotary Euphonium w/o compensating system make sense to you? Or is it alrd in existence?

Are you refering to rotary valves here or do you mean a non-comp top action piston valve euph? They already exist, for example besson internationals etc

[imperialbari]

I have a photo of the Conn 90G that I would have attached but this comes up:

Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.

We need that facility back.

Klaus

[Kevin Hendrick]

I have a photo of the Conn 90G that I would have attached but this comes up:

Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.

We need that facility back.

Klaus

You could always upload it here ...

http://www.tinypic.com/

... and link to it (using the "img" tags in place of the "url" ones).

[Art Hovey]

Regarding the project that Bloke mentions above:


I am sure that he could do a much neater job than I did.
Mine was a junky old King duo-gravis with a rotary valve section from a chinese euphonium. It played pretty well, but was fragile. I hope to find time to rebuild it some day.

Seems to me that if one of our friends who design and import instruments from Asia produced a few of these with existing parts there would be a market for them among tubists.

[Wyvern]

I was very interested recently talking to a leading professional trombone player to hear that in the 19th century valved trombones were largely used in symphony orchestras. Dvorak symphonies were no doubt written to be played using valve trombones and Wagner's music would similarly have originally been played with valve trombones. He was saying that it was largely the influence of Mahler which decided to use slide trombones in the Vienna Philharmonic which caused the the valve trombone to disappear from orchestras. But for correct period performance of 19th century symphonic music, valve trombones should be used.

[imperialbari]

viewtopic.php?p=390974#p390974

[imperialbari]

Conn 90G valve trombone:

[jmg71196]

Here is an awesome video of a beautiful piece by Vivaldi with valve trombone feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTPfe0p6CI" target="_blank
In my opinion, it sounds a lot like a euphonium, but still has a light sound that could cut through an ensemble instead of blending in.

[Allen]

How do people play valve trombones in tune? Lipping notes up or down is harder with cylindrical bore, and I don't see kickers for the slides.

Or, am I being naïve in thinking that intonation is important?

Allen

[imperialbari]

Here is an awesome video of a beautiful piece by Vivaldi with valve trombone feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTPfe0p6CI" target="_blank" target="_blank
In my opinion, it sounds a lot like a euphonium, but still has a light sound that could cut through an ensemble instead of blending in.

This instrument is a 4 valve Eb trombone. The player is Uruguayan born Enrico Crespo. He is so good hd probably could would sour good even on a tea pot. His very full sound may come from using a relatively large mouthpiece.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

How do people play valve trombones in tune? Lipping notes up or down is harder with cylindrical bore, and I don't see kickers for the slides.

Or, am I being naïve in thinking that intonation is important?

Allen

With all due respect to Bob Brookmeyer and the quite few top professionals specializing in valve trombone the sad truth is that valve trombones most often are played by amateurs, while learning the slide, or by those who don’t make it with a slide. Some players may have a bad intonation on valve trombone, but that still may be preferable to their intonation on slide trombone.

Bob Brookmeyer once showed me his valve trombone. It was a hybrid instrument. The bell was by Larry Minnick (the type that went into production as Conn 100H). The body was a stock Conn customized also by Larry Minnick. There were triggers on the 1st and 3rd slides.

The King valve section, which can be used with 2B and 3B bells, has its first slide placed, so that it is possible to manipulate it with your left hand during playing.

There is an anecdote about why the British Championships for brass band exclude the use of valve trombones:

Aside from the main competition there also are prizes for the best soloists on cornet, trombone, and euphonium respectively. The adjudicators traditionally cannot see the bands and players, as they sit in a box, which only lets sound entering.

Some 140 years ago the test pieces often were transcribed opera excerpts. One year it happened that the same player was called onto the stage as winner of the euphonium as well as of the trombone soloist prizes. The solo euphonium player of a band had picked up a valve trombone after having played the euphonium solo and then had played the trombone solo later in the test piece. That situation caused protests and hence the said rule was introduced.

Klaus

[Art Hovey]

My four-valve bass trombone is no harder to play in tune than a four-valve tuba. It is possible to use the slide for minor corrections, but I rarely need to do so. No real trombonist would like it, but it works for me because I am a tuba player and can get by on euphonium.

[imperialbari]

Pedantry of course, but were there ever more than one King valve section for trombones? Both the 2B and 3B were sold as complete trombones with slide as well as valve sections, but whereas the slide bores were 0.484" and 0.508" respectively (according to memory), then the valve section for both was the same with a 0.484" bore.

Klaus