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[winston]

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[winston]

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[ztuba]

I wish I had a school bass tuba available to me before I bought my first one for one simple reason. If I had one to practice on before I went to get one of my own, I would've been a much more informed and ready consumer. I don't believe that someone learning bass tuba should be required to stop playing contra while they learn bass. Learning to juggle your practice schedule and still be productive on both is part of learning to play multiple instruments. A student of the tuba is almost certainly doomed to buy a horn that will later be replaced by a horn that a few months, at least, of experience on bass tuba would've easily identified as the clear choice for that musician. Part of the learning process for bass tuba is just like the contra, having a school horn that may or may not be ideal to learn on before you get your real horn. It also opens up opportunities for students who have serious financial issues and have a long road ahead of them prior to the opportunity to buy that would otherwise not be afforded them otherwise. I think that schools should also own a good quality cimbasso as well. It is an academic institution and they should be just as concerned with their tuba students and the contrabassoonists they are producing and the contrabass/alto clarinetists. It is ridiculous that institutions of higher education limit tuba players in their bands on orchestras to one instrument when the professional world requires them to be way more versatile. How many schools own a contra alto clarinet? How about contra bassoon? How about bass sax? Contrabass clarinet? A lot do. I know my local school owns all but the bass sax, and yet they still only buy a bunch of BBb and a couple CC tubas with no bass tuba in sight. The money is there, it is just being misallocated in most cases.

[PMeuph]

To my knowledge, there are no Canadian schools that own F tubas for student use. However in American schools, this is a fairly common occurrence. (I could be wrong)

My question: What are some valid arguments to convince the Dean of music to purchase an F tuba?

Thank you for your help.

When I was a student at the Conservatoire in Quebec City, the school owned an old beat-up Boosey from the 60's/70's in F and purchased a used Gronitz PF-125. The school also owned a MW 2145 CC tuba.There was also several other old tubas in the storage room that wouldn't get much use.( The professor also lent one of his F-tubas out to a student who needed it)

The differences between a conservatory and a university are quite significant.
1. The conservatory caters to crowds from High school all the way up to Graduate studies. (It could therefore be ambitious to expect a 15 year old to get their own CC tuba or F tuba)
2. Students in conservatories want to go after professional jobs and usually work quite a lot on excerpts and standard solo literature that requires the F tuba. The F tuba is more of a necessity in that case.
3.Most students who where serious would pick up the F tuba in their first year of Undergrad (There is CEGEP in Quebec, so students don't transition from High School to undergrad directly, the is a 2 year "transition" program)

I think some arguments could be used in favor of purchasing an F-tuba in Canada are:

1. Despite the "poor performance" of the American Economy as of the past few years, purchasing a Tuba (or anything else as a matter of fact) is usually about 15% more expensive than it would be south of the border. And if you do purchase from down south, you need to pay the taxes at customs...
2. There is a very small market for used (F) tubas in Canada... they seldom are for sale and they usually don't sell too easily.
3. Given that there are so little horns available, it is hard to try one out and bying a tuba sight unseen, is foolish at best. A student would therefore have a horn to try out and work on. After using it, the student could figure what he/she likes/dislikes and start shopping for that horn.
4. The F-Tuba could be used by students who are possibly too small to play a large CC tuba or by Euphonium/Trombone tuba students who decide to switch to tuba. (this last point is somewhat far-fetched)

[PMeuph]

Schools do waste incredible amounts of money. I recently showed an example of a complete set of sousaphones (needing c. $1000/instrument of econo restoration work per instrument) being shelved, and new ones being purchased in their place...

...but those are "important", because they are for marching band.

I can also think of another university that did actually did buy an F tuba. It was a (used, obviously) B&S Symphonie. The guy teaching tuba there at the time (not being an F tuba player) wasn't particularly versed at evaluating F tubas. It stunk. A few years later, someone (who, apparently had it out on "permanent loan" ) marched it into my store and tried to sell it to me. I declined the offer.

I can only think of two universities with marching bands... Western Ontario and Queen's.

Therefore, the other schools should take the money ( that could be allocated to marching bands) and buy F-Tubas

[Uncle Buck]

I can also think of another university that did actually did buy an F tuba. It was a (used, obviously) B&S Symphonie. The guy teaching tuba there at the time (not being an F tuba player) wasn't particularly versed at evaluating F tubas. It stunk. A few years later, someone (who, apparently had it out on "permanent loan" ) marched it into my store and tried to sell it to me. I declined the offer.

Hey, I think I may have (seriously) played my masters recital on that B&S Symphonie.

And more on point, it was a masters degree that didn't do me much good.

Universities don't do their students a service when they allow significant numbers of music performance students to graduate without having provided them with good career counseling when they still had time to consider other majors. Same for music ed. majors who don't realize that public school teaching usually isn't a stepping stone to other things. (It's great for those who love teaching public school, just not for the rest.)

It's a minor issue, but I think school owned F-tubas tend to push things a little more in that undesirable direction.

[ckalaher1]

As a disclaimer of sorts, I like the F tuba. I enjoy playing it, and enjoy hearing others play it. I don't see an F tuba as being as much of a big deal as some. I don't see it as anything more than a tuba in the key of F. In my experience, which may not be as extensive as some or many, I've probably played my F tuba for money more often than my CC.

I remember preparing for a recital in college, and working up Strauss 1, along with Hindemith and a few others. My teacher at the time suggested I give it a try on the F tuba, a school owned Alex that they had owned for decades. I gave it a try, loved the sound, and realized pretty quickly that the upper register on the tuba was if nothing else easier to play technically in than my 188. That Alex has been used by many university level students over the years, and has served as the introduction to the bass tuba for many of us, including myself.

I guess if I were trying to convince anyone of funding needed for an F tuba, I'd simply say that the students would do well to learn a Bass Tuba, which would be of popular use in chamber and solo settings, and that it would be a sound investment for the university since it would last many decades (most BBbs do). Augmenting the skill set of a collegiate player to include proficiency on the bass tuba is a fundamental building block. "mastery" of another key of tuba doesn't have that much to do with it, at least in my opinion. I'm not sure I ever plan on mastering anything other than a casino buffet.

[Alex C]

A music school not having an F tuba is like a math school not having a computer.

[Ben]

I was very appreciative that the school (OK, conservatory if we are drawing those distinctions...) I attended had not one, but 2 F tubas. A 621 and an old Alex. I believe they purchased an 822 just before I left. Believe it or not, I hated the Alex, but loved the 621. There were 3 tuba majors at the school at the time, and we were very good at sharing the horns. Everything worked out very well. I personally did not purchase an F tuba until 5-6 years after leaving college, but I was glad I had the skills I needed to jump right in when I made my purchase.

If an institution has some quality instruments for the students to begin to master bass tuba, I think the students will make informed purchase when they decide they need / want an F. Luxury, maybe... but top 10% school in the field - its a must.

[Donn]

The line of argument featuring contrabassoon, contrabass clarinet, bass saxophone etc. isn't the strongest. I've never played contrabassoon, but have borrowed school contrabass clarinets in Eb and Bb and Eb alto clarinet. (The university didn't have a bass sax.) These instruments are acquired to facilitate performance of works that call for them. The students who play them aren't expected to set aside their study of the bassoon/clarinet etc., they're expected to be more or less able to play them at a satisfactory level after a brief study, aided by transposing notation. I doubt many alto clarinet players kid themselves that it greatly enhances their development as musicians, and I wouldn't be surprised if the beneficiaries of these loans are often not even music students (as I was not.)

Tubas are different. If you want to program a piece with an important contrabass clarinet part, you really need one - there's no point in handing the part to a bass clarinet player and instructing him to do his best, the bass clarinet just won't go there. But for tuba parts, you guys can never decide whether this or that part really ought to be played on an F, Eb, C, Bb tuba or even euphonium, as they're largely interchangeable.

[octavelower]

As both a long time student and low brass teacher I can see both sides of this argument. However, I land in favor of trying to purchase at least one good bass tuba. I would prefer to see (dare I say it) BOTH an Eb and F tuba at a decent music school. I agree with the argument that schools have a contra-bassoon, bass-clarinet etc. In response to the thought that tubas are largely interchangeable, and clarinets are not... trumpet are largely interchangeable too but have you ever tried to tell a trumpet player to use a Bb instead of his C??? Ummmm... it doesn't go well. LOL.

I believe if a school is going to equip its graduates well it needs to provide as many tools as possible to help them succeed. I think that providing these instruments would both help the serious players get better and help the ones who are on the fence to realize that maybe they aren't interested in working hard enough to be a professional player. I would hope it would help them figure out that maybe there are better degrees to get than a tuba performance degree... I don't want to start a different argument, so that's all I am gonna say about that. But I DO think that a university is FOR the students and should do whatever it takes to help them succeed.

[TUBAD83]

I was very appreciative that the school (OK, conservatory if we are drawing those distinctions...) I attended had not one, but 2 F tubas. A 621 and an old Alex. I believe they purchased an 822 just before I left. Believe it or not, I hated the Alex, but loved the 621. There were 3 tuba majors at the school at the time, and we were very good at sharing the horns. Everything worked out very well. I personally did not purchase an F tuba until 5-6 years after leaving college, but I was glad I had the skills I needed to jump right in when I made my purchase.

If an institution has some quality instruments for the students to begin to master bass tuba, I think the students will make informed purchase when they decide they need / want an F. Luxury, maybe... but top 10% school in the field - its a must.

I can see a "conservatory" owning quite a few specialty instruments. I can see all sorts of specialty schools owning specialty equipment. I'm not sure that a states' collections of three, four, five, six, or more "state universities" which operate (what is the term...??) "band director mills" (yes, I attended a "band director mill") need to be pulling off even more taxpayer money (particularly right now, with most states in or on the brink of bankruptcy) and buying a bunch of specialty equipment. Again, I believe the students (if interested and motivated to learn to use it) should buy the specialty equipment. Curiously, most of the automobiles that I see parked in student parking lots at state universities obviously (via the high percentage of recent year models) cost more than any car I've ever bought, yet the most of "tuba" students who drive some these "nicer-than-mine" cars (if they own tubas at all) do not own F tubas. We each have our personal priorities. Slightly altering a common idiom here, "You pays your money, and you makes your choices." States (and Canadian Provinces) are already greatly subsidizing the costs of students' education. "Tuition", as a percentage of the cost of a state university education for a student, is a "pfft". I believe that enough well-maintained contrabass tubas to pass around to each of the students involved in university ensembles is a very generous contribution from very financially challenged (many who are currently unemployed) taxpayers. My example of "throwing away" (rather than repairing) a set of American-made silver plated sousaphones and purchasing a new set is tragic, yet offers a snap-shot as to some of the types of uninformed and "me" decision-making that can occur at state-funded (with great challenges to even maintain the existing infrastructure and equipment) institutions of higher learning. How about watching for more responsible conservation of existing equipment before discussing adding on very expensive - and parenthetical - equipment?

I'm in complete agreement with Joe--and that does not happen every day. State funded schools should only provide the basics--they can (and do) ask for private donations for the extras.

JJ

[guillaumedu]

When I was a student at the Conservatoire in Quebec City, the school owned an old beat-up Boosey from the 60's/70's in F and purchased a used Gronitz PF-125. The school also owned a MW 2145 CC tuba.There was also several other old tubas in the storage room that wouldn't get much use.( The professor also lent one of his F-tubas out to a student who needed it)

They have Gronitz PF-125 YFB-822s and an old 4 valve besson in F... CC tuba are MW 2155, 1 sonora, 1 Amati and 1 old tuba. I think the teacher try to have and other good CC

[Donn]

Well, there you have it. They not only all look alike, they are alike! Just hack through all the high orchestra lit on BBb.

We wouldn't be reading this thread if there were no difference, I'm just saying that the school doesn't buy a contrabass clarinet to help students succeed, but to help the band director who may need one to program some piece. If a band director might often be stymied by lack of an F tuba, then it's a valid analogy, but I'm guessing that's not as often the case. That doesn't mean there's no reason to have one, but that it isn't the same reason as for contrabass clarinet.

MMMmmmm... Clam chowder...

I believe I'll have the cioppino.

[PMeuph]

I believe I may have heard of an instance where an "arts" high school successfully politik-ed for a special, very expensive, harmony woodwind instrument - something about the same price as a darn-nice car (in the price range along the lines of a brand-new Buick Lacrosse, etc.).. I believe I may have also heard that it was never ever used at the school, but only in the local ROPA orchestra. I also may have heard that when the teacher transferred to another school, the instrument - curiously - was transferred to the same school.

Again, it may be best for the taxpayers when people who have special interests find ways to fund these interests themselves.

A lot of your points are well taken... But as the OP stated this is for a Canadian university, so regardless of whatever you say, it won't be YOUR tax dollars that will pay for it...


(Although I don't pay much taxes as a Student)

[bort]

A music school not having an F tuba is like a math school not having a computer.

Say whaaa...?

About 10 years ago I got my BS in Mathematics. I can remember exactly 1 class for which I needed a computer, and that was only for 3 or 4 small projects during the semester. Beyond that, I never needed a computer for math courses, nor am I even sure how a computer could have been helpful (would it write a proof for me?). Haha, most classes, they just stuck us in a cold (or hot) chalky basement classroom.

[bort]

Oh, and to stay on-topic, the only F tuba I remember seeing in college was Tom Holtz playing his small Yamaha in the jazz band. I wasn't a music major though, so maybe there was more that I didn't see.

[Rick Denney]

Assuming the argument has been made that publicly supported colleges are not job training factories, and therefore are allowed to teach major courses of study that might not lead to a living (in that field), but that do create an educated populace less likely to require public assistance or a visit to a correctional facility, then a school with a music performance program should have no trouble justifying an F tuba or two for their students to use.

Is an F tuba a specialty instrument for a performance major? Is is possible to get a performance degree without having learned to play one? Can one play the whole literature on a contrabass and have it sound the way it should? It does not matter whether that part of the literature can be played on an C, or whether that part of the literature is even that great. A person educated in that field who has been conferred a performance degree should have more than just basic skills, and should be able to perform all the canon of literature appropriately. One may argue whether a publicly funded college should have a music performance degree program. But far worse is having one that does not produce properly educated students because it is not equipped with the tools required for a reasonably complete education.

If all music was written for contrabass but it was cool to have a bass tuba for some really out-there stuff, then that would be one thing. But a significant percentage of the literature was written for a bass tuba, it being the standard instrument in most of the countries and in most of the periods from which the great literature emerged. Using a C tuba for Brahms, for example, is a compromise. Using a Bb for the Vaughan Williams Concerto (still the most well-known tuba concerto in the literature, and surely should be under the fingers of any performance major) is not at all appropriate.

A music school not having an F tuba is like a computer science program not having a computer (there, Alex, I fixed it for you), or a civil engineering program not having an Instron machine or a theodolite, or an English program not having a library that includes a good selection of ancient texts. Most of them will have an assortment of these items, many of which are rather esoteric, because an education implies knowing a few esoteric things in addition to just the basic stuff.

That doesn't mean the university can't seek private funding for that stuff, and many do. Endowments don't just pay for college professors. Go write a grant for it. Pitch it to your former students association.

Rick "thinking poorly supported and ineffective programs are the worst wastes of money" Denney

[eupher61]

A music school not having an F tuba is like a math school not having a computer.

Agreed fully. As several other posts have mentioned, for one thing, how often is a contrabass clarinet called for except in bands or clarinet choirs? (Aside from Anthony Braxton/Roscoe Mitchell duets...yeesh!) Bass sax, maybe a little bit more, but only in old jazz. Not learning F tuba, as a tuba major (especially a performance major) is like never learning a trigger trombone. Or A clarinet. Or C trumpet. Or tenor sax. Or piccolo. It's a required piece of equipment for most professional players (at least, those who make the bulk of their living playing) and a refreshing change for many others. I play F almost exclusively, for everything. Of course, my "everything" is jazz, polka, civil war, a rare wedding or church service, an occasional pit...but the small orchestras I would be comfortable playing with don't require more than I can provide with the F. Dan Perantoni always bragged about the PT F's, how adaptable the sound can be, and he's right.

And, also total agreement here with the concept of being familiar with an F before buying one. Not a good reason for a U to purchase, necessarily, but it is another point. If you're going to serve students fully, they need to be equipped for the real world.

[Uncle Buck]

Go write a grant for it.

Now THERE is the best suggestion I've read so far in this thread.