Help with a Horn

[NerdyTubaGuy]

Hey TubeNet. I am going into my senior year of high school and am set on majoring in music in college. So I'm looking to buy a horn pretty soon. I do not have means to go try out and compare horns. I've been told that The Thor, PT-6P, or a Hirsbrunner would be the way to go. I was just wondering what works for a lot of people. I know this isn't a very good way to decide on a horn, but like I said, I don't have the means to go play test any horns. If it helps, I am looking for a 5/4 CC with 4 pistons and a thumb rotor. I want the darkest sound I can get and very little slide pulling. And of course, I want even response in all ranges of the horn. Any feedback You guys could give me would be incredible. Thanks!

[Ace]

You are in high school. For the sake of your wallet, and your parents', I think you would be wise to consider a Chinese (gasp!) clone of the Miraphone 186 which can be purchased for one-third the cost of the "real" thing. There are several of us here on the board who own one of these instruments. They play very nicely, have good tone and intonation, and are solidly built. They should be quite satisfactory for at least your first two years of college. Probably longer.
Good luck in your continuing studies.

Ace

[thezman]

Last year, I was in the same position as you. I spent six months looking for a used horn that would be what I needed. I ended up settling on the HB-293, and it took another two months to get the deal done, but it was well worth it. It's a large 4/4, and plays like a 5/4. As hard as I try I cannot overplay on the horn, and it does not have the same intonation problems as the previous horn I played, a PT-1.

Now that said, don't get caught up in the hype of certain pre-set ideas of what a college music major needs. Different people work well with different horns. I know three music majors at the University of Illinois who play, respectively, a PT-6(5/4 CC), a King 2341(4/4 4v BBb) and a Miraphone 186. If you're a performance major, or plan on playing in an Orchestra rather than a Band, it is many peoples opinions that a CC is what you need, but a BBb works. Its just your personal opinion, it's like rotary v. piston. For years I thought rotaries were better but when time came to getting my horn I got piston valves and am glad I did. The most important thing is to get a horn YOU like, not what someone else thinks you should have.

What horn do you plan on now?

Hope this helps

[NerdyTubaGuy]

A Chinese horn is out of the question for me. If I'm going to make such a big investment, I want a horn I can play forever. Not own for a couple of years and get a step up. I've been leaning towards the Thor, but recently, I got to play another model MW 5/4 CC (though I'm not sure which one) and was not happy with the way it played. And it was uncomfortable to hold. I've never seen a Thor in person, so I don't know if it is the same design. But that really turned me off to MW.

[bort]

Check out the Miraphone 1291 or 1292. I had one for about 4 years, and only sold because I prefer rotary tubas. Big sound, easy to play, and really a nice horn. I would have been very happy in college with one.

[Dan Schultz]

Well.... I know you are really set on spending some bucks on a horn. However... I can assure you that this will not be the last horn you buy.

If you have access to a tuba now... wait until you at least select a college and have the opportunity to solicit the advice of your professor. Performance majors tend to lean toward CC tubas while education majors (who plan to teach middle or high school) need to focus on what they will be teaching... a BBb tuba.

That being said... I'll second Bort's advice that a 1291 or 1292 might be a good choice.

You have a little time. Wait and make a better decision.

[Nick Pierce]

The horns discussed above all have two things in common. First, they are all fantastic horns. Second, they all cost much more then you need to spend. Even a used PT-6 costs more then both my horns put together. A good Kalison will handle just about anything you'll have to do with it in music school, and will run for less then $5000 used (less then $4000, usually). While not considered a 5/4 horn, it still puts a a very big sound and can support all but the largest orchestras. A cursory look over the first three pages of the for sale section here shows one of these for sale, as well as some comparatively desirable horns (188, that PT-5, CB-50, a Weril and an Amati if you want to save some moneyetc.) that would all do well. Talk to your professor, see what he recommends. And then go for it.

(By the way, as glowing as my review of the Kalisons is, I would like to mention that mine is not for sale.)

[octavelower]

Another thought.
I bought a CC tuba when I was in high school, I thought I made a good investment, it was a decent horn and I was very happy with it. But as I grew as a player and matured as a musician, I found that my first choice didn't suit my needs. I have since went through these tubas...
Yamaha CC (can't remember the number, they don't make them any more)
PT-20P
Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC (huge tuba!)
Rudy Meinl 3/4 CC
Miraphone 1291

I also went through these F tubas...
Yamaha 621
Yamaha 822
Rudy Meinl rotory F
Willson
and back to a Yamaha 822

I have also inherited a Besson 983 Eb

After all those instruments, I ended up with the 4 that are on my signature... and for me (for now...) I am quite happy with my "stable". I am starting my DMA this fall so there is certainly the possibility that I may make a change as I work with my instructor Charles Villarrubia. The only change I am considering right now is between the Besson 983 and the Yamaha 822. They are VERY similar and I may sell one to get something with a different color. Thinking about a smaller rotary F but I haven't decided which bass tuba to sell yet. We'll see.

Long story short is that it is likely that the first horn you buy won't be your last...
CDRom

[Rick Denney]

A Chinese horn is out of the question for me. If I'm going to make such a big investment, I want a horn I can play forever.

I predict considerable poverty in your future, as you buy expensive instruments in search of The One.

How can you buy the perfect tuba for you if you haven't even had a chance to develop enough a as a performer to know who you are? College freshman to college golf coach, "Coach, just don't mess with my swing. It's working for me." Coach (speaking wisely): "Son, you don't even have a swing, yet."

Point is, no matter what you spend, you'll probably want something different in a few years. VERY FEW tuba players (or other musicians) currently play the instruments they bought in high school. Even amateurs usually move on to something different. I can only think of a few examples in history where an instrument bought at your age became the instrument for life. Jacobs was one, but he was a prodigy and proved it using very substandard instruments, and it was really just luck that the instrument that really suited him for his whole life came to him when it did.

So, do you buy the latest hot new tuba that once it loses favor will be dumped on the market at a fraction of its new price by all the trend-chasers who are now onto something new? You'll lose a lot of your investment if you do that.

Or, you could buy something proven on the used market, learn to play it well, and then be in a position to evaluate what you really need. If you decide to sell it, you won't lose a dime.

Buying a tuba is not like fathering a child. Nobody will accuse you of abandonment and make you pay child support if you move on. This is a business decision, since you want to be a pro. Be strategic. If you don't know the next move life has for you, guard your flank. (And here is TRVTH: You never know the next move life has for you.)

There is another issue to rag on you about: You aren't willing to go to where the tubas are to make this life-time decision? Will you also order your bride by mailorder? You'll spend five figures for a tuba but won't make a summer road trip to a tuba store? Crap--the last time I had major repairs done to my favorite tuba, I road tripped 1500 miles to pick it up because I wouldn't risk Greyhound. And I bet I spend only a little more than the shipping would have been.

And all that is parallel truth to what DP said, all of which is right on the mark.

If this is your last chance to spend a whole ton of your parents' money without having to pay it back, and if they are foolish enough to agree to that, then get a Thor. You probably won't know the difference anyway, and it is a good tuba. It will likely end up a hard financial lesson, but what the heck, you won't have to pay.

Rick "awake yet?" Denney

[Tom]

I don't usually respond to these kinds of threads on tubenet (and there have been MANY identical to this over the years and many trolls), but what the heck...

I've been where you are. I was just as impatinent and anxious to get a tuba of my own. I had the cash in hand to buy almost whatever make and model I wanted. I rushed into buying an instrument. I had done my homework and had the support of my teachers at the time, BUT I should have waited.

My suggestion to you would be to WAIT.

You don't need to buy now. Wait until you've gone off to whatever school you want to attend. See what your teacher prefers and why. Other people in your studio will probably own all manner of tubas...try them all. I was in college with guys that owned St. Petes and guys that owned Hirsbrunners...it was all over the place. Play school horns for now. See what YOU like and dislike. Go to the music conventions in your area, state, or region to get a taste for what's available. Saying that you're leaning towards a Thor (at $1x,000 new) when you haven't even seen one is just silly. Even if buying used, at what...$7-8k?, having never seen the instrument is silly.

I daresay that you should even reconsider the "need" to switch to CC tuba. Try all of the BBb tubas you can get your hands on. Some are exceptionally good instruments. If I were in your position today, I'm not so sure I would have ever switched.

I think it's also important to understand that you're probably not buying your "forever" horn, and that's ok. I had fun in college doing some horn wheeling and dealing and horse trading my way "up." I ended up with a Meinl Weston 2000. It was the non-6/4 CC tuba to have at the time. It did some things really well, but ultimately wasn't the instrument for me. I sold it after college and bought an old Alexander...a COMPLETELY different beast. My point being that your sound concept, your playing, and your taste in instruments will change over time, as will your overall priorities and the amount of money you want to have tied up in instruments.

I don't know what your financial position is, and it is none of my business, but I would encourage you to think about your likely post graduate life/career before you pile up the loans to pay for instruments. My career is in music, orchestral music at that, but I have a non-performing job. I'm in a position now to be able to "afford" just about any instrument I want, but didn't feel I could justify keeping my $1x,xxx MW that I already owned outright because I wasn't getting the use out of it that (to me) could justify the expense. I cashed out and traded down to a $4,xxx Alexander...a move unthinkable to some, yet it suits my sound concept, my playing, and my taste in instruments. I've now got less than $10k in both of my instruments and am perfectly happy with them.

[bbocaner]

Hey TubeNet. I am going into my senior year of high school and am set on majoring in music in college. So I'm looking to buy a horn pretty soon. I do not have means to go try out and compare horns. I've been told that The Thor, PT-6P, or a Hirsbrunner would be the way to go. I was just wondering what works for a lot of people. I know this isn't a very good way to decide on a horn, but like I said, I don't have the means to go play test any horns. If it helps, I am looking for a 5/4 CC with 4 pistons and a thumb rotor. I want the darkest sound I can get and very little slide pulling. And of course, I want even response in all ranges of the horn. Any feedback You guys could give me would be incredible. Thanks!

I won't discourage you from getting a new instrument -- I know that having an instrument you really like is critical to doing a good job with the auditions you'll have coming up next spring. And if you want to switch to CC and are serious about becoming an orchestral player, now is the time to do it. But if you have the means to buy a thor, a pt-6p, or whatever, you have the means to find a discount flight and hotel to somewhere where you can try them out before buying them.

And even as a senior in high school you are going to be pretty hard on an instrument. Give it a few more years and you'll be able to take much better care. TRUST ME on this!

If I were you I'd run, don't walk, to that $3000 Kalison CC in the classifides. It meets all of your requirements except it isn't a 5/4... but it's a serious instrument that you could do a lot with for a year or two and then flip it for what you paid for it when you have a better idea of what you really want.

[NerdyTubaGuy]

There is another issue to rag on you about: You aren't willing to go to where the tubas are to make this life-time decision? Will you also order your bride by mailorder? You'll spend five figures for a tuba but won't make a summer road trip to a tuba store?

That's not fair to say. I'm not spending a dime of my parents' money. I have a couple thousand saved up (definitely not enough to buy a new horn). And I don't believe I ever said anything about a new horn. I'm more than likely going to buy used. And when I say I don't have the means to go try anything out, I mean it. Both of my parents are often out of town all year for work and never get any vacations. I am left at home to take care of my little brother. And like I said, those are horns that my previous private teachers and my old band director (who played tuba in college at UGA) recommended. My intention with this post was not to say "these are the horns I'm looking at;" it was to say what I've heard works and to ask what else works well. And I don't intend to buy a horn right now. I am going to have to wait until I get in college and take out a student loan. Right now, I'm just trying to plan ahead. My experience with CC tubas are this: the Besson 993 (I think), a PT-4, a Miraphone 186, the MW in my original post, a PT-6P (only for a couple of seconds, not really long enough to make any judgements as far as playing is concerned), and a 4/4 MW. Based on what I have played, I like how free blowing the PT-4 was, but it a bit too small for me. I liked how the PT-6P felt, but like I said, I didn't get to play it long enough to get a good impression of how well it played. I haven't particularly liked the MW's or the Miraphone. And the Besson didn't work for me at all.

[Rick Denney]

I'm just trying to plan ahead. My experience with CC tubas are this: the Besson 993 (I think), a PT-4, a Miraphone 186, the MW in my original post, a PT-6P (only for a couple of seconds, not really long enough to make any judgements as far as playing is concerned), and a 4/4 MW. Based on what I have played, I like how free blowing the PT-4 was, but it a bit too small for me. I liked how the PT-6P felt, but like I said, I didn't get to play it long enough to get a good impression of how well it played. I haven't particularly liked the MW's or the Miraphone. And the Besson didn't work for me at all.

To buy an instrument in the class you are considering, you are going to need a LOT more than a couple of grand. My advice: Don't plan what to buy, plan to have enough so that when you know what you want, you'll be able to buy it. That is planning you can act on. Include the cost of the necessary physical research into your plan.

It may mean you are pretty far along in a bachelor's program before you can make your purchase. That would put you in the position of becoming the most musical person you can be with whatever tuba the school can loan you. You will not suffer from that experience.

Most of questions like yours that we get immediately follow the realization by the questioner that money is available for a purchase, and that money, which is usually not their own, is nevertheless burning a hole in their pocket. Patience is the common advice and rarely is it accepted.

With $2000, you can get a passable used Bb tuba. Getting a passable used C tuba will cost more than twice that for one of the models you didn't like, and maybe three or four times that for used examples of the ones you did (at least on first impression). If you must have a tuba because there's nothing else to play, get the passable used Bb, because playing that is better than not playing. Get a respected brand in battered condition, improve the condition while you own it, and you'll probably earn a profit on it when it comes time to buy something better. Really you are just storing your money in something to play for now. That is consistent with the patience strategy.

Rick "who has bought and sold tubas on the basis of building trade fodder" Denney

[bbocaner]

So I'm looking to buy a horn pretty soon.

And I don't intend to buy a horn right now. I am going to have to wait until I get in college and take out a student loan. Right now, I'm just trying to plan ahead.

?

[NerdyTubaGuy]

Next fall is pretty soon and when I said right now, I meant like in the next month or something like some people thought I may have meant. I probably should have said I am planning on getting a horn when I get to college. Currently, I am playing on a school horn (a 13 year old Yamaha YBB-641. It's in bad shape, but it plays), and I do just fine on it. I've just been told several times that music majors generally get a horn as soon as they get to college. I wouldn't mind playing a school horn for a while if that will be as beneficial as you guys say it will. I do appreciate all of the input. And I looked for the Kalison CC, but I guess I'm too late.

[BavarianFanfare]

There are many great suggestions and comments here to your question. As some have suggested, it is from my own personal experience that I will pass on this to you. It is incredibly important that you find and begin lessons with the best professional tubist-teacher you can afford and find in your area as soon as you can. Secondly, the horn or horns your teacher will recommend for you should be seriously considered. The Miraphone 186 or 187 in BB-Flat is really difficult to beat! It has a long track record, is well made, and is a horn you could keep or play for a very long time. It is a versatile instrument! I personally own a VMI 2103, which was my first tuba, and later I purchased a Miraphone 187, both are BB-Flat horns. I play the 187 exclusively now. It is a much, much better horn than my VMI, but is a good horn for a starter. If I had had a little more money at the time I purchased the VMI, I would have gotten a 186. My opinion is to learn the BB-Flat first, then decide after a few years if you want to switch, and seriously consider what your teacher has to say throughout the process. Your teacher will know what is best. For it's price point, quality, and consistency, overall a 186 or 187 would be my suggestion. At an earlier point in my playing, I had the pleasure to borrow and play my teacher's Alexander 163, and seriously considered purchasing one. However, he advised me against it and suggested I purchase a Miraphone. In terms of cloned horns from China, I would save your money until you could get a Miraphone, new or used, instead of a clone. That is my opinion. Best wishes!

Bavarian Fanfare

[tubaforce]

Next fall is pretty soon and when I said right now, I meant like in the next month or something like some people thought I may have meant. I probably should have said I am planning on getting a horn when I get to college. Currently, I am playing on a school horn (a 13 year old Yamaha YBB-641. It's in bad shape, but it plays), and I do just fine on it. I've just been told several times that music majors generally get a horn as soon as they get to college. I wouldn't mind playing a school horn for a while if that will be as beneficial as you guys say it will. I do appreciate all of the input. And I looked for the Kalison CC, but I guess I'm too late.

Hi!
I have a nice Cerveney 686 5MR for sale, and another TN member had a nice 601 for sale too! PM if interested...
Al

[BavarianFanfare]

Tom,

Not too long ago, I was considering switching to a CC. You had mentioned that you would not have switched, had you to do it over again. I discussed it with my teacher, and even other respected players like Richard Murrow and Roger Lewis. Each one told me the same thing, stick with a BB-Flat. Because each of these wise gentlemen knew what direction I was going, I heeded their professional advise, and stayed put on BB-Flat. To teach middle or high school, this is the key to use. Also, I can list a number of great BB-Flats I like other than the 186 or 187, but found the Miraphone 186 or 187 BB-Flat to be the best fit for me, and I have no problem suggesting it to a player just starting out on their way to college. All the best!

Bavarian Fanfare

[kingconn]

A good Eb or F can take you through your career. Wait to get a bread and butter horn until you have matured more as a player. Now that I am approaching 50, I feel like I finally know what I want to sound like when I play. The ideal tuba sound is not as standardized as the ideal "legit" trumpet sound,just sayin'. Give it time.

[SousaSaver]

Hey TubeNet. I am going into my senior year of high school and am set on majoring in music in college. So I'm looking to buy a horn pretty soon. I do not have means to go try out and compare horns. I've been told that The Thor, PT-6P, or a Hirsbrunner would be the way to go. I was just wondering what works for a lot of people. I know this isn't a very good way to decide on a horn, but like I said, I don't have the means to go play test any horns. If it helps, I am looking for a 5/4 CC with 4 pistons and a thumb rotor. I want the darkest sound I can get and very little slide pulling. And of course, I want even response in all ranges of the horn. Any feedback You guys could give me would be incredible. Thanks!

You NEED to have the means to try out horns. You wouldn't spend $36,000 on a car without test driving it would you?

If you are taking private lessons, ask your teacher for advice. They should know what might be good for you.

That being said, call Yamaha and ask for YCB-826-CC.