York vs Holton

[Rick Denney]

Holton!!
A good Holton is everything a York is but with a tad more 'meat' to the sound.
The only problem is that the old Holtons were pretty inconsistent compared to the old Yorks.

Hmmm. When people talk about Holtons, as is "York vs. Holton", they are generally comparing the CSO-owned Jacobs York to the Holton CC-345. Those two big Yorks were made in 1930 or so, and the Holton 345's were made starting in the 50's up through the early 70's.

There were big Holtons and big Yorks back in the 20's, too, and at that time they were probably comparable in quality and consistency. Most of those, however, were Bb, top-action, 3-valve "basses", often with a recording bell.

But to say that the CSO York, of which there are only two, has a less meaty sound than a post-war Holton 345, one would have had to have had experience with the former, or at least heard a comparison of the two side-by-side. Few have had that opportunity. I've never noticed any lack of meatiness in Jacobs's sound, or in Pokorny's, for that matter.

I love the sound produced by my Holton, but I have certainly not compared it to Yorks that are originally of the same design.

As to old Bb York band basses that have been converted to C tubas for use by orchestral tuba players, the examples I've played have been no more consistent than your average run of battered old BB-345s. Sometimes the conversion works out, and sometimes it doesn't. Ditto for converted pre-war Holtons. In C, I think I'd rather have a modern example, like a Meinl-Weston 6450 or a Yamayork, as long we are spending Lotto winnings, though those who have good Holtons (the few know who they are) don't offer them for sale. In Bb, though, there are not so many options easily available.

Rick "wondering how consistency can be evaluated in a run of two, both of which were, by all reports, quite different" Denney

[UTSAtuba]

Holton!!
A good Holton is everything a York is but with a tad more 'meat' to the sound.
The only problem is that the old Holtons were pretty inconsistent compared to the old Yorks.

Hmmm. When people talk about Holtons, as is "York vs. Holton", they are generally comparing the CSO-owned Jacobs York to the Holton CC-345. Those two big Yorks were made in 1930 or so, and the Holton 345's were made starting in the 50's up through the early 70's.

There were big Holtons and big Yorks back in the 20's, too, and at that time they were probably comparable in quality and consistency. Most of those, however, were Bb, top-action, 3-valve "basses", often with a recording bell.

But to say that the CSO York, of which there are only two, has a less meaty sound than a post-war Holton 345, one would have had to have had experience with the former, or at least heard a comparison of the two side-by-side. Few have had that opportunity. I've never noticed any lack of meatiness in Jacobs's sound, or in Pokorny's, for that matter.

I love the sound produced by my Holton, but I have certainly not compared it to Yorks that are originally of the same design.

As to old Bb York band basses that have been converted to C tubas for use by orchestral tuba players, the examples I've played have been no more consistent than your average run of battered old BB-345s. Sometimes the conversion works out, and sometimes it doesn't. Ditto for converted pre-war Holtons. In C, I think I'd rather have a modern example, like a Meinl-Weston 6450 or a Yamayork, as long we are spending Lotto winnings, though those who have good Holtons (the few know who they are) don't offer them for sale. In Bb, though, there are not so many options easily available.

Rick "wondering how consistency can be evaluated in a run of two, both of which were, by all reports, quite different" Denney

Agreed, but I think tooba (based on his past comments) was leaning towards his opinion on the York and Holton sound differences of the compact 4/4 horns (Monster Eb & BBb).

[Frank Ortega]

The Holton/York is definitely bigger.

Interestingly enough, on 2 occasions I happened to be in the room when Mr. Pokorny and Mr. Kniffen were trying a variety of vintage and modern BBb tubas, and the CSO York was there for comparison. To me, the closest instrument in sound and structure to that instrument was Paul Scott's Martin Mammoth BBb with the Kanstul reproduction bell. The Kanstul bell is a little shorter than the original upright bells, giving it more of a CC tuba quality. There were no Holtons in the room, however, there was a 6/4 York BBb with a Meinl bell which was pretty close to the size of a Holton. Also, hearing Paul play my horn back to back with his Martins, the York/Holton gets a much broader, darker sound where the Martin's were much more focused, colorful, and fascile. Both possess great presence.

My two cents,
Frank

[toobagrowl]

Agreed, but I think tooba (based on his past comments) was leaning towards his opinion on the York and Holton sound differences of the compact 4/4 horns (Monster Eb & BBb).

+1. Yep, I was mostly going on my personal experiences with both vintage Holton and York Monster Eb tubas. I have played a couple York Monster Eb tubas and I own two vintage Chicago-made (pre-1918) Holton Eb tubas and a 1967 Holton bell-front 350 BBb. I regularly use the Eb's in brass quintet, and occasionally in tuba quartet and concert band.

But I have also played on the big 6/4 Holton and 6/4 York CC tubas and have heard several tubaists on both. With all that personal and listening experience, I think I can make a pretty accurate description on the sounds of both brands. The Yorks (both Monster Eb's and 6/4 CC's) have A LOT of overtones in the sound with a fair amount of fundamental (bass). It is also a VERY mellow sound. The Holtons (both Monster Eb's and 6/4 CC's) also have a lot of overtones in the sound with a good amount of fundamental - a touch more than the Yorks. The Holtons also have a mellow quality to the sound. But the Yorks have such a mellow, puffy, overtone-y sound that you almost feel like the tuba will lift you up into the clouds when you play one of them It is a very 'pretty' sound. The Holtons have that similar quality, but enough fundamental and 'bite' in the sound (mellow like the York, but able to give more bite/edge IMO) to keep the sound more 'solid' and 'grounded', but also able to give that floating/buoyant sound like the York when needed.

[Rick Denney]

But I have also played on the big 6/4 Holton and 6/4 York CC tubas and have heard several tubaists on both. With all that personal and listening experience, I think I can make a pretty accurate description on the sounds of both brands. The Yorks (both Monster Eb's and 6/4 CC's) have A LOT of overtones in the sound with a fair amount of fundamental (bass). It is also a VERY mellow sound. The Holtons (both Monster Eb's and 6/4 CC's) also have a lot of overtones in the sound with a good amount of fundamental - a touch more than the Yorks. The Holtons also have a mellow quality to the sound. But the Yorks have such a mellow, puffy, overtone-y sound that you almost feel like the tuba will lift you up into the clouds when you play one of them It is a very 'pretty' sound. The Holtons have that similar quality, but enough fundamental and 'bite' in the sound (mellow like the York, but able to give more bite/edge IMO) to keep the sound more 'solid' and 'grounded', but also able to give that floating/buoyant sound like the York when needed.

There were only two York grand orchestral tubas made in C. All the others are conversions, and so you are evaluating what the guy doing the conversion did as much as the original.

But I completely agree with your description of the Holton sound, so I have to trust your description of the York sound, however you got to hear it (other than by listening to Mr. Jacobs or to Gene).

Actually, I think I can agree with your description when comparing a Holton to a good Yorkbrunner. That lifting quality description really rang a bell for me.

Rick "thinking nobody made a Monster Eb bass with a decent scale" Denney

[toobagrowl]

Rick "thinking nobody made a Monster Eb bass with a decent scale" Denney

I love how you sneaked in this little comment after more or less agreeing with me.
Typical Rick Denney style...

As far as Monster Eb "intonation" goes, I will just say it all depends on:

- The condition of the horn. Are there any leaks? Any big dents that affect how it plays? Are the valves really worn? Remember, these horns are OLD (70 - 100+ years old).

- If the receiver and/or leadpipe have been changed out with a more modern one that will "open up" the horn and accept standard mouthpieces.

- Do the 1st and 3rd slides need any cutting because they are slightly too long?

And most important of all.....

- The player behind the horn.



@ bloke: this thread is titled York vs Holton......so discuss

[Rick Denney]

I love how you sneaked in this little comment after more or less agreeing with me.
Typical Rick Denney style...

But the internym addressed a completely different issue related to the topic you apparently meant without saying. You were the one who hijacked the thread into a discussion of Eb basses, so I responded to that in my internym after my main discussion, which was related to on-topic contrabasses, and in the context of which I agreed with the parts of your statements that I knew anything about.

My internym comment was certainly not sneaky! It's written in plan, full-sized English. No micro-font, no Morse, no foreign language, no silent reference to some other thread, or any of the other typical sneakiness one occasionally sees on Tubenet.

Rick "harumph!" Denney

[cjk]

ok..."discuss"...

Most all large vintage Eb Buescher/Conn/Holton/Martin tubas offer "quaint" (humorous?) intonation which (as much as the average American school band has degraded since the 1960's) wouldn't even pass for "acceptable" in most modern-day schools situations....

Large American E flat tubas have stinky scales.

The only thing that seems to "improve" the relative intonation intonation of a large American E flat tuba is a "For Sale" sign.

[Walter Webb]

Most all large vintage Eb Buescher/Conn/Holton/Martin tubas offer "quaint" (humorous?) intonation which (as much as the average American school band has degraded since the 1960's) wouldn't even pass for "acceptable" in most modern-day schools situations. The York "Monster" Eb tubas are arguably the least bad, but the York "Monster" Eb tubas' 2nd and 8th partials (f-l-a-t !!!) are still - consistently with these - a great struggle.

So, there is this premium Monster York Eb copy on the market right now, made by Kanstul. http://www.kanstul.net/category.php?cat ... roundBrass" target="_blank
Does anybody have an informed opinion as to it's level of "quaint" or "humorous" intonation? Or, have these issues been fixed by modern design tweaking?