Slide Pulling

[TUBAD83]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

So you are implying that anyone that does not pull slides can not play at the pro level? Really?
Someone who puts out a book stating his own OPINION should be taken as "gospel" and everyone who does not is not a pro? Really?

Surely you are able to state your opinion without insulting others--right??

JJ

[sousaphone68]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

It seems you may misunderstood me the point I was trying to make was that the expectations of some posters regarding asian horns was too critical when viewed against the failings of some of the alternatives.
If it came across as my dismissing the need to pull slides then I need to improve my prose skills.
My technique suits the dominant style of tuba and expectations of my conductors where I live and play.
Is it better than yours I don't know have not heard you,have not played a tuba that needed it. Would not buy one that was so out that it required constant pulling as it would not suit my technique or skills.

I have not had the benefit of studying the tuba at third level but have been taught over the years by many professionals and have played with pros and amateurs my tunning was never a cause of concern so both methods obviously work.

[Mark]

When, if ever, any of you who don't pull slides play at the level of the pros who do pull slides, come back and revisist this post. Let us know how you did it.

In the menatime, buy A Treatise on the Tuba by Donald W. Stauffer. There is a section in this book that explains why tubas cannot play in tune without some kind of adjustment while playing.

So you are implying that anyone that does not pull slides can not play at the pro level? Really?
Someone who puts out a book stating his own OPINION should be taken as "gospel" and everyone who does not is not a pro? Really?

Surely you are able to state your opinion without insulting others--right??

JJ

Does Dave Kirk pull slides?

[Rick Denney]

I'm extraordinarily lucky to own an F tuba that offers a combination of an extraordinarily good scale and extraordinarily good flexibility which allows me to "hold and play" it.

Well, you do have to push buttons with that left hand, so it's still doing more than just holding the instrument.

And you have some combinations that are different than other six-valve F tubas. You are using the availability of six valves in different combinations to make minor adjustments to the length of the bugle so that it will match your buzz pitch.

There is another point we haven't brought up, but that you once described to me based on playing a certain really famous instrument. Some tubas are a bit more broad-banded than others, in that the resonant frequency is not so sharply resonant that a little variation in the buzz pitch causes a noticeable change in tone. Perhaps part of the magic of that legendary instrument (of which two were made) is that one can vary the buzz frequency without undermining the tone.

I think it's fair to say that anyone who cannot buzz the correct frequency for a given situation has no need of the various methods for adjusting the bugle length to match. Those who do are probably just showing off. Those are the folks who need a tuba with narrow slots that will correct their buzz errors, sorta like Autotune. A Miraphone 186 has some of these qualities. The B&S Symphonie will play in tune if the player plays in tune. But it will not cover for a tin-eared tuba player. (I used to put myself in the tin-ear category, but I think I've been hard on myself. I seem to play in tune in when playing with good musicians. And I certainly never fool with the slides on my F tuba. The B&S seems pretty good about delivering a good tone--to the extent I'm able to feed it--even when the pitch is a bit bent.)

Rick "noting that Stauffer learned his lesson about slide pulling back in the 40's on a Conn Orchestra Grand Bass, not exactly the pinnacle of good intonation" Denney

[Mark]

Rick "noting that Stauffer learned his lesson about slide pulling back in the 40's on a Conn Orchestra Grand Bass, not exactly the pinnacle of good intonation" Denney

I'll bet he played in tune though.

[cjk]

Rick "noting that Stauffer learned his lesson about slide pulling back in the 40's on a Conn Orchestra Grand Bass, not exactly the pinnacle of good intonation" Denney

I'll bet he played in tune though.

I don't have my copy of the Stauffer book handy, but this is what I remember.

Stauffer is told by a conductor that his E is flat.
He later maps out this tuba with a tuner.
He then has a curtain rod main tuning slide gadget added to his horn.


If you're being told by the conductor that you're flat, then I wouldn't call that playing in tune.

[luke_hollis]

My experience is slide pulling is not for show.

If you maintain an even airstream across all notes and registers, and essentially blow the same for all notes, then you might need to adjust slightly via slides for notes out of tune. If you take the lip it approach all the time, you don't always have time to settle on a note when you play it and can produce uneven sound.

Blow evenly across all notes and make slide adjustments where needed (as trumpets do).

I pull on 1st and 4th slides where needed.

Luke

[SousaSaver]

5 or 6 pages and this thread is STILL going. It's a necessary evil. Some folks say that they don't need to pull slides, good for them. Some people do, some don't.

Should you.............YES!

Learn where your horn is pitch wise and get to know your first valve slide, especially if you play BBb Tuba where many of your problem pitches will involve 1 or 1+2 valve combinations.

Just my opinion, don't shoot me please.

[Jobey Wilson]

Wow, quite a thread! Great arguments on both sides. We've all seen world-class players on both sides of this coin. We're all built differently, have different training, and different axes. We all have the same goal, and we should do whatever makes US sound best!

I like the beer idea...shall start another thread

jobey

[sousaphone68]

Thank you to all that have posted replies to the thread it has meandered around a little I have learned a couple of things that will lead me to do some more research and discussion among my peers.

There was one part of the original post that seems to have escaped comment or discussion. I asked why it was not possible to design the need for slide pulling out of the tuba and why the market accepts this for some makes and models and not others?

Last Sunday I had to set my third slide an inch longer to flatten an exposed Gb in a Cole Porter selection mainly due to the other tuba player having acquired a new Bb which was flatter than me he had nothing to push in an so I had to pull out.
So pulling occasionally has to be done for me.

[sousaphone68]

Double post sorry

[sousaphone68]

I have found an answer to my can it not be designed out of an instrument question and if Miraphone are to be believed they have done it please see below an excerpt from their spokesman and collaborator

No tuba is 100% in tune. Compromises are the nature of a brass instrument. However, these tubas are the most “in tune” instruments I have ever played on. During the recording of my last five solo cd’s I NEVER had to use the tuning slides during performance. Keep in mind that the German producers at BIS recording company are among the finest in the world and they show no mercy when they hear a note out of tune!

The punctuation and capitals are his not mine.
The secret apparently is an even and precise taper from the lead pipe to the bell.
The instrument in question Norwegian Star Eb and I am sure every one knows who the spokesman is.
I am not going to name him because I will get the spelling wrong.
Here is the link to the page where he talks mote about a lot of the topics raised in this thread.
http://www.baadsvik.com/index.php?optio ... 01&lang=en" target="_blank

[TUBAD83]

Oystein Baadsvic wrote:
"Why rotary valves and not pistons?
Rotary valves are faster than pistons. Consider that the stroke length of this particular tuba is 16 millimeters. A typical piston valve has a 25 millimeter length. The Miraphone valve is designed to return fast due to (in my case) strong springs. These can easily be adjusted to fit the player. Miraphone tubas are also fitted with rubber pads on the far side of the valves and cork pads on the return. Cork absorbs the shock better so there is less bouncing."

"I also find that rotary valves works better for bending notes in jazz, etc."

This is not a very thoughtful statement !
Either sort of valve can be played equally well. There is a slight nuance to each which some people never completely get.
I prefer Rotaries because of maintenance issues and longevity, but I would never say that either one is clearly superior in playabality!

Lets be honest and call this what it is--a salesman pushing a product. BOTH of Mr. Baadsvic's teachers (Harvey Phillips and Arnold Jacobs) used piston valved horns and they would have never made such a statement. Jazz tubists Jon Sass and Howard Johnson both use piston horns, so I don't think they would agree with Mr. Baadsvic either. This is a downside of being an "artist/salesman" for a manufacturer---always have to be careful not to compromise your rep to earn a few more $$$.

JJ

[sousaphone68]

I have found an answer to my can it not be designed out of an instrument question and if Miraphone are to be believed they have done it please see below an excerpt from their spokesman and collaborator

No tuba is 100% in tune. Compromises are the nature of a brass instrument. However, these tubas are the most “in tune” instruments I have ever played on. During the recording of my last five solo cd’s I NEVER had to use the tuning slides during performance

I did say if they are to be believed and while I have until now only owned piston valved tubas I recently bought a distressed rotary valve tuba and was amazed that the valves still had a lot of life left in them except for valve 1 it made me stop and think about my choices and I am currently trying to work out how to fit in a Eb rotary without being divorced.
Any way the only excerpt I pasted was in regard to the slide pulling and I think it lends weight to the argument that if you have a good design and a good technique you dont have to pull a slide.
Maybe some one can start a thread on piston versus rotary

[sousaphone68]

My first valve slide is stuck. I called everyone who has hired me through December and put all of those gigs "on hold". They were all very understanding.

It must be rough to not live near any good brass technicians !

Proves the old saying the painters house is always the one that needs a coat of paint

[sloan]

My first valve slide is stuck. I called everyone who has hired me through December and put all of those gigs "on hold". They were all very understanding.

It must be rough to not live near any good brass technicians !

Proves the old saying the painters house is always the one that needs a coat of paint

there are things you will do to a customer's equipment that you would never think of doing to your own

[tubaforce]

Oystein Baadsvic wrote:
"Why rotary valves and not pistons?
Rotary valves are faster than pistons. Consider that the stroke length of this particular tuba is 16 millimeters. A typical piston valve has a 25 millimeter length. The Miraphone valve is designed to return fast due to (in my case) strong springs. These can easily be adjusted to fit the player. Miraphone tubas are also fitted with rubber pads on the far side of the valves and cork pads on the return. Cork absorbs the shock better so there is less bouncing."

"I also find that rotary valves works better for bending notes in jazz, etc."
Can anyone name ONE rotary playing Jazz Trumpeter? Or steer me to a rotary playing the "whinny" on Sleigh Ride?
If I'm playing nothing but walking bass, with the occaisional solo thrown in, then rotors are much easier to play Jazz with, IMHO! If I were to play the lead on a ballad, or latin tune ( as I often did on Euphonium in my College days...), I cant imagine using a rotor equipped axe!


This is not a very thoughtful statement !
Either sort of valve can be played equally well. There is a slight nuance to each which some people never completely get.
I prefer Rotaries because of maintenance issues and longevity, but I would never say that either one is clearly superior in playabality!
As to tuning, let me quote James the "tubashaman", "We pull for tone not tuning !"
This is true if you're playing a good horn, but if your playing my B&F frankentuba, you gotta pull for both tuning and tone !

+1
Al

[Kevin Hendrick]

My first valve slide is stuck. I called everyone who has hired me through December and put all of those gigs "on hold". They were all very understanding.

It must be rough to not live near any good brass technicians !

Proves the old saying the painters house is always the one that needs a coat of paint

there are things you will do to a customer's equipment that you would never think of doing to your own

"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"?

[sousaphone68]

There is a very interesting thread at the moment that raises the idea that tuba design is not where it should be at the moment and has raised some of the points that I had hoped would be touched on in this one
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45864" target="_blank