is it worth it?

[kamakazekiwi]

Hi Tubenet,

I have a question concerning a tuba I just bought. I'm a trombone player primarily, going to be a freshman in college starting in a couple weeks. I recently bought an old 3 valve King 1140 3/4 tuba to practice when I'm at home on breaks from school. Now the instrument I bought is in pretty rough shape. It plays alright, but the bell is really really warped and folded up, and the bottom bow is heavily dented, missing the bow guard, and partially smashed on the outside bow. It's just in rough shape. I took it to a local repairman, and he said he could fix it up and get it into top playing shape for $600-$700. I paid $300 for the instrument, so $1000 for a perfectly working BBb sounds great to me. However, I'm not sure if I should bother. I've played on my friends PT-6P CC, and have done a lot of playing on Miraphone 186s, and I can't get the same quality of sound out of that little 3/4 tuba as I could with the others (ESPECIALLY the PT-6).

So my question is, if I got this 3/4 tuba restored, would it be feasible to perform on it? Would I be able to use it to play professionally after school? I don't mean trying to join an orchestra, more like jazz, dixie, pit orchestras, that kinda random stuff. OR, should I just leave it as is, sell it in a few years and buy a nicer horn? (by that I mean like $2000 budget kinda thing, I don't see myself being able to lay down a ton of money for a tuba)

Thanks!

[Dan Schultz]

Another $500 on top of the money you'll have invested with the repairs will buy you a 4V tuba that you'll get a lot more use out of.

In my opinion... a 'warmed-over' King 1140 wouldn't be worth your investment... unless, of course... you have some sentimental attachment to the horn.

[rodgeman]

Another $500 on top of the money you'll have invested with the repairs will buy you a 4V tuba that you'll get a lot more use out of.

In my opinion... a 'warmed-over' King 1140 wouldn't be worth your investment... unless, of course... you have some sentimental attachment to the horn.

+1

As a former trombone player I agree with TubaTinker - he can also set you up with something. See his website.

[shoedumas]

As a repairman, I completely agree with Dan. That's the sort of thing where unless you're repairing it yourself and not paying for labor, it's just not worth it. I would spend the money investing in something that you KNOW you will be able to play professionally. It may take a bit of patience, but there are some real gems out there that fit the bill.

[kamakazekiwi]

I've been doing "production" (very heroic repairs on smashed up school tubas) all summer, and am quite "in my stride" right now.

If the mouthpipe isn't horrible...and the braces on the slides aren't all busted (which is typical of an 1140)...and as long as the bell rim isn't cracked...etc...

...I could probably "do" a bow and a bell on a small tuba like that for a good bit less than $600.

That having been said, I (or several others) could sell you a brand-new Chinese copy of a King 1140 (with a very tough molded case) for approximately the amount of your proposed total investment otherwise...and no, just like all of the other Chinese stuff, it doesn't quite play as well as the thing it replicates.

A King 1140 is (at least in my view) a reasonably viable "trombone doubler's" tuba...as long as you're not playing in the pit on Broadway in NYC, etc...

...but no, I wouldn't be very happy with $1000 into something like that.

I just felt $1000 was alright seeing as most 3/4 student tubas are well above $2000 new. I'm just not sure though.

And.... Well the leadpipe is amazingly just about perfect, and it appears to be the original too. I mean there are marks and lacquer wear, but no dents or bending really. As for the slide braces, they aren't all busted, but many have been replaced, and well.... Whoever did it is not very talented with a soldering iron, I'll just leave it at that.

And it needs more than just the bell and bottom bow. The smashed part gradually extends past the bottom bow about halfway up to the top outside bow, and the second largest bottom bow has some dents that need to be taken out too. I'll attach the only picture I have of it. You can see on the left how smashed it is.

[kamakazekiwi]

naw...That may be $600 in someone else's shop, but not in mine.

I bet I know precisely what that smaller bottom bow looks like.

The only "suck" thing is you packing it up, shipping it, me unpacking it, me repacking it, and me shipping it...

' time spent on "stupid crap" rather than just "fixing the tuba".

Where do you live...New Zealand...?? West Memphis, Arkansas...?? Guam...??

I'm in Washington (State). The big issue is that it's gonna be at least $120 to get it to you and back, compared to driving it to Seattle which doesn't cost me anything (excluding gas ).

Also, would this include the addition of a bottom bow guard? Or would it be left without one.

[kamakazekiwi]

Hmm, well the package I received it in didn't cost too much too ship, so I think it should fit those dimensions. I'll check tomorrow morning.

It sounds good to me as of now, but I'm not sure if I'm going to want to do the restoration now (I'm not taking this with me to school for at least the 1st semester). I'm assuming I could come back to you with this around December or something like that?

Couple things I'm wondering is, do you (or anyone else) think that the sound quality and playability of the horn will increase noticeably with the smashed and heavily dented tubing re-rounded and the bell flattened out? And how would the lacquer on the bell and spots that need to be heavily repaired likely look after the restoration?

[Dan Schultz]

..... do you (or anyone else) think that the sound quality and playability of the horn will increase noticeably with the smashed and heavily dented tubing re-rounded and the bell flattened out? And how would the lacquer on the bell and spots that need to be heavily repaired likely look after the restoration?

Please bear in mind that I'm an 'old guy' who likes large horns. There should be some improvement attached to getting things back round again.

But.... if you are hoping for that old King to becoming a great player... it simply isn't going to happen. Those horns just don't perform like that. I honestly think you should consider putting your money somewhere else.

Sorry, Joe. I don't need the work, either!

[Donn]

Couple things I'm wondering is, do you (or anyone else) think that the sound quality and playability of the horn will increase noticeably with the smashed and heavily dented tubing re-rounded and the bell flattened out?

No. If you could magically get the work done in 5 minutes so you could do a fresh A/B comparison, you might notice a little real difference, but cross country, "holiday season" (when bloke presumably will no longer be in his stride), it will be in your head. [The damage could be worse than I think.]

And how would the lacquer on the bell and spots that need to be heavily repaired likely look after the restoration?

A little worse.

[Dan Schultz]

sidebar & complete change of topic:

I wonder if anyone has ever pasted an old 2431 11/16" bore valveset on one of these? Generally, the 1140 sounds pretty good (between 3/4 and 4/4 size) and such a contraption (yes?) would be a little bit larger than a YBB-621...and American-made.

A small-ish front-action Franken-King might be fun. About the only minor complication I see is reorienting the leadpipe knuckle.

[toobagrowl]

The King 1140 is more or less a 3/4 BBb tuba designed for middle school use. It's not really fair to compare it to the more "all-around" Miraphone 186 or the "orchestral/symphonic" B&S PT-6.
But I remember playing a King 1140 back in middle school and thought it was alright. IMO it sounds better than the small Conn, Yamaha and Jupiter student BBb tubas. Despite the small .640" bore, 15" bell and small bows, it sounds good for it's small size probably because of the open wrap and bell geometry/shape.
I think it would make a decent small tuba for the doubler on jazz, dixieland, etc.
Send that thing off to bloke and he can iron out the dents and get it in top playing condition. And he could prolly spot-lacquer for a little more $$.

Here is what a used King 1140 in good condition w/case & mpc go for:
http://cgi.ebay.com/KING-1140-3-valve-3 ... 2974wt_513" target="_blank" target="_blank


The small P-O-S Chinese student BBb tubas already go for more than that.

[kamakazekiwi]

To me, it teeters on the edge of being worth-it or being not-worth-it.

Currently,

- You have a BBb tuba that plays. (yes?)
- It cost $300.

Before taking an ugly/runs-OK 1995 Chevy Cavalier to the body shop, I'd think about it for just a bit.

Again, there is a gleaming shiny-new Chinese copy of the 1140 which INCLUDES a very heavy-duty molded case. I can sell one for $1100 and come out with a profit. You COULD (??) re-Bay your beat-up 1140 for $300, be back at square uno, pay $1100 for the Commie knock-off, and (as "no dents" and "shiny" seem to appeal to you) have those things.

bloke "Again, you have a tuba that plays."

Yeah, I want to avoid the Chinese copies. Too many horror stories, and just flat out experience with them not playing as well as their real counterparts.

When I took it in to the local shop, one of the techs played it, said it played alright but could be better with some bell/dent work, and then said the same thing. That he had some clones in the back of the shop, brand new, $1000ish with a case, shiny and pretty. But he also said that he thought the King I brought him, even in poor condition was playing better than the clones he had.

I'm thinking that I'm gonna do the restoration sometime in the next few months. From what people are saying, it sounds like it would be perfectly fine for light jazz/dixie gigs, I can probably get plenty of money to buy a second 4 valve full size BBb in the next 4-5 years if I need it, and honestly I feel like if the bell was rolled out and most of the dents were removed, I could sell it for quite a bit more than I bought it for later on if I wanted to.

as "no dents" and "shiny" seem to appeal to you

Not really, I was just told by a tech who looked at it and played it that it would perform better with some work done to it. Thanks though.....

[Ben]

Just a thought...

Every dixie gig I've played has gone better with dents. Scruff horns fit the bill. Maybe rough out the major dents a little, but leave the ripples. The girls like that

[J.c. Sherman]

Since this is an "add 2 cents" forum:

1) I like the parts from these to fix other instruments.
2) I'm not fond of the sound of these, the architecture, nor the ergonomics.
3) For $800 you can get a far better player from Yamaha, a larger King, and others.
4) It plays and costs $300... and you can get that investment back at any time. Hang onto it until you want a better instrument; I just don't think you'll get a positive investment from your dollars (though Joe is listing a very good price!). In the end, it'll still sound and play like an 1140. Not a coveted sound.

J.c.S.