Opinions wanted on restoring process on Besson

[SousaSaver]

In my humble opinion, unless this horn bears some great sentimental value, the cost of a proper restoration far outweighs the value of the horn.

Assuming you don't have to have the valves rebuilt, the dent removal,CAREFUL SCRATCH REMOVAL , polishing, prepping for silver plating and silver plating itself will cost a great deal of money.

This isn't to say that it wouldn't be worth it, but don't expect to properly restore this horn and then turn around and sell it for a profit sometime in the future.

Again, in my opinion, regardless of how well these play, these are regarded by many as student instruments, and that effects the overall value. The difference between 3 and 4 valves can mean more money. It's not a good or bad thing, it's just the way it is.

Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[The Big Ben]

So I'd lean on assembling it and keeping it playable since the valves are in good shape, not necessarily a "full restoration," but, more like keeping the "daily driver" running, with maintenance as needed.

+1

[PMeuph]

They play down to low E with very good intonation. I've been hired as an extra to cover the baritone horn parts on Don Quixote, Ein Heldenleben, and The Planets. No, this isn't the complete list of baritone horn parts in orchestral literature, but I still don't recall having been asked to play anything outside the range of one of these instruments. Are there band pieces that reach lower than low E...?? yeah, probably. Would those pieces be ruined if those stray (shame on those composers!) pitches were covered by one of the tuba players (or the other euphonium-guy who has a 4-valve comp)? So far, I haven't made much money (like zero, because I can't play those pieces anyway) playing show-offy low-range cadenzas in the middle of theme-and-variations baritone solos. Who knows, though...?? maybe next week...?

yeah, a 3V comp (though not commanding high prices) will cover nearly all of the literature...but I still don't think I'd pay someone to buff and silver plate one of these.

Correct me if I'm wrong....but the version of Ein Heldenleben that I have always played as an Eb an a low C... Here is the part from IMSLP...Just look at the 5th measure after rehearsal mark 11... (And the part is in Bb bass clef...)

[hald]

Thank you for all of the comments and advice. I decided to go ahead with the replating and have the horn finished, without additional engraving etc., to have a pretty nice, though not perfect, daily driver sort of horn. I already have a chunk of change in it, so I felt I might as well complete it. I know it won't be worth a large sum when finished.

One thing about this, and it applies to my tubas too, is that where I live it takes many months to get anything done. I know one local fellow whose euph restoration at a local shop dragged on for over 1 1/2 years. I don't understand why. The last time I needed a repair was for a small (tiny) dent on a tuba bell. Local shops said 4 to 8 weeks. I took it to ABI in Anaheim and they did it in one day. I took a mp to a local shop to be replated and they said they wanted to send it to the platers along with their other items to save on their shipping. They kept it for over 6 months, I called every month and was told it had been shipped. I finally got it back, unplated, as the shop never sent it off. Yesterday the tech estimated the euph would be done in about a month. I can only hope...
-hald

[hald]

Thought I'd let you know how it turned out. Since the last post the euph has just been sitting at the repair shop. The tech last said he needed to reassemble it before he sent it off to have it replated. Today I went and got the euph and case back (not the mouth piece though). It hasn't been reassembled, still has dents that need to be removed, and only the bell has been buffed. I'm so disappointed and mad. I will never step foot in that music store again. The euph is a total loss.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

The euph is a total loss.

I am really sorry to hear the restoration has not gone as smooth or quick as you had been lead to expect. When it comes to such projects any good shop is going to take a while to deliver the finished product. I must admit that I would be very hard pressed to process one in four months.
For many of us who do perform such work on a reagular basis, time to comit to rebuilds is always in limited supply. It sounds like your shop bit off a bit more then they were ready or able to chew at the time and were not as up front with you about the time table as might have been wise. I have been cought up many time with major projects taking far longer then originally planned (see: Holton 345). Fortunatelly the owners were very understanding and worked along with me so I could deliver the best results possible and stay in budget (Thank you Mike, Dave and Dale). Is the instrument really a "total loss''? What makes you think this is the case? I do hope you are able to work things out and get it back together and in working order. Those Besson euphoniums are really pretty good horns. Good luck.


Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Dean E]

. . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

. . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

That's borrowed from the silversmith discipline bag of tricks. It soaks up tons of money and a crazy amount of time...nearly prohibitively expensive...particularly for a 3V comp. euphonium...when a new silver Jinbao 3 + 1 comp. (which is a GOOD euphonium - copy of long-mouthpipe YEP-842 ) hovers in the lower $1XXX range (new).

bloke "There are some who view the best restoration as the least restoration."

. . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

That's borrowed from the silversmith discipline bag of tricks. It soaks up tons of money and a crazy amount of time...nearly prohibitively expensive...particularly for a 3V comp. euphonium...when a new silver Jinbao 3 + 1 comp. (which is a GOOD euphonium - copy of long-mouthpipe YEP-842 ) hovers in the lower $1XXX range (new).

bloke "There are some who view the best restoration as the least restoration."

Actually, acid-copper-plate comes from the industrial side of the tracks. I was introduced to the process when rebuilding bumpers of all things. I don't recall using it in the silversmithing shop. Yes, it can be a tad costly but not outrageously expensive. When I had my local guys copper up two sets of large bows and branches for two tubas (about six pieces), if I remember correctly the bill was about $600. Yes, these were pretty high end horns and well worth the effort. Does this euphonium really require that much investment? probably not. I have rebuilt plenty just like this one in the past with great success and at relatively reasonable cost. We have ways of addressing scratches, its called sanding (GASP!!! OH MY GOD, OBERLOH USED THE ''S'' WORD, CLUTCH THE PEARLS!!!!!) yes its true. Hears a news flash kids, the factories sand them too. You just need to know what your doing and for crying out loud, don't be an idiot about it and over do it. I have found the Besson euphoniums to be very forgiving but you do need to have the skill and facilities if you want to do the job right and at a reasonable cost (see: BUDGET).



Regardless of its origin, Swiss or Chinese, you still have to sit down and hand hammer the dents and burnish and roll and press them out completely prior to lightly sanding and buffing. You still need to tend to the details and do good solder work. I typically mask and glass bead blast these kind of horns prior to silver plating but not always. The price of silver plating has gone up a bit and we are now getting hit with a sir charge on the process but its still doable. I am sure this horn can be restored to a very attractive and nicely functional state but it's a projct that is still going to take time and cost $1200 if it is to be done correctly.

Daniel C. "who contrary to others on this board feels the horn is still worth the investment if it is going to be played'' Oberloh

[hald]

The horn was originally really in pretty good shape, with few minor dents and no big ones, and the satin silver plating was pretty good. It had had good care over the years. It was clear to me the finished result would be removal of minor dents and re plating, like a new paint job on an old car. What makes me mad was that I was lead to think it involved minor repair work and, consequently, would take little time to complete. I was given an estimate of 4 months. If I had been told 6 months to a year I might have agreed. It just seemed to be sitting at the shop with little being done. I've posted before asking questions about what reasonable time frames are at shops. The last time a similar thing happened I took a mouthpiece in to be re plated. The shop ( a different one) let it sit for 6 months and never sent it for plating and I feel lucky that I ever got it back. I had work done in L.A. and S.F. and never had problems.

Loved the photo of those horns. FS? Also, the mention of copper plating. I went to jewelry school, and I thought about doing that myself. I figured it might be easier to wait and see the result of the plating, and then if needed, get out my jewelry tools and do a repair in silver. I also thought about doing a wreath, like a Miraphone, to hide the scratch (it might not fit in a case, though).

I really appreciate all the input.

[Ken Herrick]

Maybe there IS a way out of this which will bring some cheer.

I must admit that I am rather surprised at Dan's price of $1200 - I would have expected it to be a fair bit higher. Of course, a master craftsman with all the right equipment can do a job quicker, and thus "cheaper" than somebody who has not got the full set of skills and and tools.

Dan is right, as usual, that some sanding, and if required copper plating, can make scratches disappear,especially with a frosted finish, when done right.

Maybe the answer is to carefully pack this instrument up and send it west. If the instrument suits you it would be much better than writing it off and leaving it in pieces in a box sitting in the basement somewhere. That WOULD be a total loss.

Understand, of course, that it would still take some time and the cost could vary. At least you could trust Dan to do the job right. Who knows, Dan might even be in a position to take it as a trade towards one which is all ready to go.

Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you.

[sloan]

Excuse me - but all this fuss over a few SCRATCHES?

How did it PLAY before it was taken apart? What repairs would have been necessary to make
it a fully competent PLAYER?

Are you restoring a musical instrument, or a piece of jewelry?

[The Big Ben]

Excuse me - but all this fuss over a few SCRATCHES?

How did it PLAY before it was taken apart? What repairs would have been necessary to make
it a fully competent PLAYER?

Are you restoring a musical instrument, or a piece of jewelry?

Well, I think both.

The OP said it played fine before it was taken apart. He wanted some dents removed and to have the horn replated. He wanted it to look better, which is a reasonable thing to desire. He's been disappointed by the performance of the people contracted to do the repair to the point of bringing his horn home. A couple of people are attempting to give him some advice and point him in a realistic direction.

Form *can* follow function.

[sloan]

Removing dents and replating are reasonable. Killing the entire project because some scratches might show through the replating is (IMNSHO) not.

In my opinion, both sanding out the scratches and the alternative of filling them with copper (and then sanding the whole thing smooth) do nothing for "function". If they are cheap and easy (and don't weaken the instrument) - then fine. But, if the cost threatens to kill the entire project - then the project is revealed as a jewelry job (in my opinion, just another form of wall hanger).

Polish the pistons, not the bell!

[The Big Ben]

Polish the pistons, not the bell!

Nothing wrong with the pistons of this horn. To the person paying the bill, the problem was the bell. His current problem is a shop who didn't know what they were doing, gave him bad advice and made no progress. Experienced people are telling him that it is possible to get what he wants at a price he would be willing to pay. Having a replate job with no scratches under the plating is reasonable and attainable. Having a vintage instrument you like dent-free and shiny is also reasonable and attainable. The OP had the misfortune to take the instrument to a shop who could not produce that result in the time desired.

I guess we'll have to live with a difference of opinion on this one...

[Dean E]

Troll alert! Suppose that one's romantic partner asked for cosmetic surgery. Would we still hold the same opinions?

[The Big Ben]

To quote one of my favorite movies:

"Take this quarter, go downtown, and have a rat gnaw that thing off your face! Good day to you, madam..."

Sometimes a little cosmetic surgery is advantageous....

[toobaa]

A question: Does all this extra plating alter the playing characteristics of the horn? Or is the copper sanded, i mean, buffed back down to the level of the original brass? Will silver plate on a horn that was originally lacquered impact the sound? Thanks, inquiring minds just want to know.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

A question: Does all this extra plating alter the playing characteristics of the horn? Or is the copper sanded, i mean, buffed back down to the level of the original brass? Will silver plate on a horn that was originally lacquered impact the sound? Thanks, inquiring minds just want to know.

Maybe, not sure, probably. When a horn is in a state where this process is applied, its in pretty rough condition and does not play optimally anyway, if at all so we are talking salvage. Keep in mind, the horn would be completely unsoldered, dents removed, valves rebuild, probably a new mouth-pipe, tuning slides tightened, properly assembled and soldered back together, etc. so, copper or no, the instrument will most likely play different from when it originally went onto the bench.

The acid copper build up I use, is rather thick, so much so that Joe's solder mask would not work. Prior to the copper plate there is a lot of dent work and the surface is coarsely sanded. The ends of the branches are masked with platers tape that is then wired fast. After plating the surface is belt sanded level/smooth and polished to a proper finish. The amount of copper is considerable but much of it is lost (40%?) in the sanding and polishing stage. What is really important is the shape of the inside of the tubes and branches which are not plated. THats what really impacts the sound anyway. If a bell is really trashed thats a part that is better off replaced (see: Bloke's eBay advice).

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and BRass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank