Why Transpose?

[Ames0325]

Why do we have transposing instruments? Why not just write everything in concert pitch? Why are there such a myriad that read one note and sound a different? It just seems thouroughly confusing and pointless to me.

Amy

[KevinBock]

Unlike the tuba world most other instruments are not comfortable reading multiple ledger lines all the time, along those lines scores would most likely be 4 or 5 inches taller because of how many ledger lines youd see on certain instrumental parts. Remember too that we seem the odd ones out for not transposing and only having a single clef to worry about. Plus going along with brass bands and their stupid 3+1 Eb tubas, its tradition.

[Shockwave]

One rationale is that transposition is one way to keep the range of the instrument centered on the staff, and the standard transpositions vary even for instruments of the same key in order to achieve this. An Eb trumpet is high pitched so its parts are written a minor third low, while Eb alto sax parts are written a major 6th up and Eb baritone sax parts are a major 13th up all in the interest of keeping the notes close to the staff. The alternatives to this would either be to use multiple clefs or write the parts in treble or bass clef perhaps with a lot of leger lines. The multiple clef approach is used for strings and vocalists where there is no specific fingering for each note that shifts in a pattern up and down with the key of the instrument. The leger line approach is used for the concert pitch instruments such as flutes, jazz trombones, and tubas.

Since the easiest transposition is the octave, I would prefer parts to be written in concert pitch in either treble or bass clef and shifted by octaves to cut down on the leger lines. For example:
High Trumpet: treble clef down an octave
Alto sax: bass clef down an octave
Tenor Sax: treble clef up an octave
Bari Sax: bass clef
French Horn: bass clef down an octave or regular octave
Tuba: bass clef up an octave
Lead Trombone: bass clef down an octave

-Eric

[TubaRay]

Surely you know the answer to your question...

...so oboists can play all oboe-like instruments without having to re-learn all of the notes with different fingerings.

...so saxophonists can do the same...

...so British brass band members can do the same...

...so tuba players can learn four sets of fingerings to play their non-transposed music on their whacky collections of tubas.

And I thought you might have a cynical answer.

[Paul S]

Surely you know the answer to your question...
...so oboists can play all oboe-like instruments without having to re-learn all of the notes with different fingerings.

Do you mean English Horn rather than Oboe? I always considered Oboe as non-transposing but maybe my brain is running slow this morning.

[corbasse]

Surely you know the answer to your question...
...so oboists can play all oboe-like instruments without having to re-learn all of the notes with different fingerings.

Do you mean English Horn rather than Oboe? I always considered Oboe as non-transposing but maybe my brain is running slow this morning.

Well, English horn is a member of the oboe family There are several more members, most of them not in C.

Bloke forgot the flutes. Playing a Db piccolo part on a C piccolo (or the other way around) is no picknick!


[Edit]

I think there are 3 reasons for transposing:
1) A player can switch between instruments of the same family and not worry about fingerings.
The US habit of writing tuba parts as sounding and re-learning the fingerings for each different tuba is one of the very few exceptions on this system.

2) To keep notation clean. This can mean fewer ledger lines, or, with french horns for instance, writing the part in C and stating a accidental-laden transposition (Most pro horn players actually prefer transposing horn in E than reading a pre-transposed part in F with a load of #s)

3) The most important: It's tradition. It's been done for centuries, why stop now?

[MaryAnn]

It's done to cause those of us who have perfect pitch to go stark raving mad. Everybody else talks about "use X fingerings" as if the written pitch didn't mean anything, only a fingering.
Try this "transposition exercise" that will give you the feel of "transposing" when you have perfect pitch:

Read, out loud, these letters, substituting the letter two places previous in the alphabet to the letter you are looking at. Fast.

siufduisdjkekgfmw

MA

[ThomasDodd]

It's done to cause those of us who have perfect pitch to go stark raving mad. Everybody else talks about "use X fingerings" as if the written pitch didn't mean anything, only a fingering.

even without perfect pitch, I'm having fits playing a G-bugle using transposed music. It's written to finger like a Bb tuba part ( but sounding 1.5 steps lower). So I see F, and try to play an F, but the horn is pulling me to a D. Gave up and got the treble clef part (ala brass band) to dissassociate the written note for the pitch. It's helped a lot, though my treble clef reading sucks:(

[corbasse]

It's done to cause those of us who have perfect pitch to go stark raving mad. Everybody else talks about "use X fingerings" as if the written pitch didn't mean anything, only a fingering.
Try this "transposition exercise" that will give you the feel of "transposing" when you have perfect pitch:

Read, out loud, these letters, substituting the letter two places previous in the alphabet to the letter you are looking at. Fast.

siufduisdjkekgfmw

MA

But written pitch doesn't mean anything! It's only habit that dictates that a note between the 2nd and 3rd line should have a frequency of 440 Hz (or 442, or 441, or 445 depending on where you live), and then only if there is a sort of stylized G thingy on the 2nd line in front of it. You perfect pitch types just take things way, way too literally

Probably, with a few months of training yor reading exercise would be no problem for a majority of readers.

[ken k]

The biggest reason is each instrument has its own history and development story. They all came from different countries and backgrounds.

If one person were to have sat down and invented all the instruments at the same time, perhaps it could be done the way you say. Like recorders for instance. All the diferent pitched recorders have different fingerings, where as all the saxes have the same fingerings so one can theoretically pick up any sax and play it. The composer or arranger is the one who needs to know what is going on not the performer necessarily.

I always wondered why the transposed keys ended up being Bb and Eb and not C and F (like an oboe family, bloke), then at least one of the instruments would have been in concert pitch. I also think there could be a market out there for C trumpets and C melody saxes for all those amatuer church musicians who just want to play along on the hymns.

but alas it is not to be.....
ken k

[ThomasDodd]

[quote="Jonathantuba"]
This does make for great flexibility in the band. It is much quicker to become used to the new pitch, than it is to learn new fingering - so it is a good idea.
[quote]

And what if yopur playing a BBb horn with one group , and an F horn with another. Constantly playing both you do get used to teh new pitch

[ken k]

British Brass bands have all the parts (except bass trombone)...

I was so ignorant, I didn't know that British-style brass bands included any sorts of trombones.

and what is weird is seeing a trombone part in treble clef (Bb), but you can read it like tenor clef.
k-

[MaryAnn]

It's done to cause those of us who have perfect pitch to go stark raving mad. Everybody else talks about "use X fingerings" as if the written pitch didn't mean anything, only a fingering.
Try this "transposition exercise" that will give you the feel of "transposing" when you have perfect pitch:

Read, out loud, these letters, substituting the letter two places previous in the alphabet to the letter you are looking at. Fast.

siufduisdjkekgfmw

MA

But written pitch doesn't mean anything! It's only habit that dictates that a note between the 2nd and 3rd line should have a frequency of 440 Hz (or 442, or 441, or 445 depending on where you live), and then only if there is a sort of stylized G thingy on the 2nd line in front of it. You perfect pitch types just take things way, way too literally

Probably, with a few months of training yor reading exercise would be no problem for a majority of readers.

It's a habit like reading words is a habit, my boy. Like, when you see the word "tuba" you hear the word "tuba" in your head, right? When I see a note on a staff, I hear that pitch in my head. So although my first clefs were treble and bass on piano, when I learned viola I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the middle line of the treble clef. When I learned horn I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the second line; etc. BTW, I still think having "perfect" pitch is a benefit....as long as it is used for "pitch recognition" and not "absolute frequency."

MA, who doesn't expect the color blind to be able to understand seeing colors either

[corbasse]

It's a habit like reading words is a habit, my boy. Like, when you see the word "tuba" you hear the word "tuba" in your head, right?

Great example. When I read that word, I do hear "tuba" Only, depending on the language the rest of the text is written in, I hear completely different pronounciations. When I read a word like "habit" I hear "habit", but simultanuously I also hear the Dutch word "gewoonte" which sounds not even close to any English word in use today. Further in the background translations in other languages sometimes appear as well.
It's a habit I've had to learn.

When I see a note on a staff, I hear that pitch in my head. So although my first clefs were treble and bass on piano, when I learned viola I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the middle line of the treble clef. When I learned horn I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the second line; etc. BTW, I still think having "perfect" pitch is a benefit....as long as it is used for "pitch recognition" and not "absolute frequency."

MA, who doesn't expect the color blind to be able to understand seeing colors either

I understand completely, allthough I only have the ability to hear the correct pitch of a printed note if I have a french horn in my hands..
The problem is not perfect pitch, but the development nowadays that a lot of people get completely glued to the one notation they use for their instrument. Especially some treble clef, non-transposing instrument players seem to be guilty of this. For them, a note on the first line is an E, and nothing else. At best they have a vague, abstract notion that for some it might be different.
Explaining the existance of transposition and/or other clefs (7 or more of them ) to them is a frustrating experience. If you couple this "glued on 2nd line treble clef" attitude to perfect pitch you have a recipe for a lot of frustration and confusion on both sides
"This note is on the first line so it's 330 Hz"
"Nope, this one isn't. There is a C clef on the 2nd line so this one is 220 Hz."
"?????????"

[Chuck(G)]

It's a habit like reading words is a habit, my boy. Like, when you see the word "tuba" you hear the word "tuba" in your head, right? When I see a note on a staff, I hear that pitch in my head. So although my first clefs were treble and bass on piano, when I learned viola I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the middle line of the treble clef. When I learned horn I had to learn to hear middle C when I saw a note on the second line; etc. BTW, I still think having "perfect" pitch is a benefit....as long as it is used for "pitch recognition" and not "absolute frequency."

You knw, sight-singing (solfege usually) used to be part of a traditional musical education. The ability to look look at a score and know what the music soiunds like without playing it coupled with the ability to "play by ear" is a pretty potent cocktail that will get one through a whole lot of technical hassle involving transposition and whatnot.

After all, most people can sing simple melodies in any key with scarcely a thought. Coupling that skill with reading musical notation and then with the ability to play what one hears in one's head is just about unbeatable against any other approach.

I'm curious if solfege is still a requirement of collegiate instrumental performance programs.

[Tubadan]

Since the easiest transposition is the octave, I would prefer parts to be written in concert pitch in either treble or bass clef and shifted by octaves to cut down on the leger lines. For example:
High Trumpet: treble clef down an octave
Alto sax: bass clef down an octave
Tenor Sax: treble clef up an octave
Bari Sax: bass clef
French Horn: bass clef down an octave or regular octave
Tuba: bass clef up an octave
Lead Trombone: bass clef down an octave

-Eric

How would you explain to a beginner sax player why the alto sax part is written in bass clef and tenor sax in treble, when all through elementary school they were taught that the smaller instrument plays the high notes and the big instruments play the low notes?

Besides, the saxes read on the treble staff to begin with as transposed instruments. Why screw with what already works?

[Chuck(G)]

Nobody has really gotten to the real reasson why there are transposing instruments.
THink about it, every insturment that is a transposing instrument (OK ,except for bass and TC baritone) were at one time non-chromatic instruments. THey had to have multiple instuments to allow them to play different pieces of liturature.
THe parts were published as "Trumpet in C", so even when trumpet players had a chromatic instrument availbale to them, they still had thousands of the old parts, so they bought chromatic C trumpets and Eb trumpets and kept reading the same music.

Perhaps for brass, but your argument doesn't appear to hold much water when it comes to woodwinds. Saxes have always been chromatic instruments, as have most other woodwinds, yet transposition is very common there.

I put it that transposing instruments are so written because it permits a player to use the same fingerings on a wide range of instruments and has nothing to do with chromaticism.

While it's true that orchestral parts were written in a transposing key for non-valved brass, the reasoning was the same--a horn player could tell which partial to play regardless of what crook he had installed, thus simplifying things enormously.

[Chuck(G)]

It's true that saxes have always been transposing, but the fingering systems were based on other woodwinds that were not.
THe "family" theory seems to explain Saxes the best.

Let's see here, a C flute is non-transposing, but a G alto (also a Boehm creation is transposing, the Db piccolo certainly is, as are the C bass and Eb soprano), recorders have always been transposing (and chromatic). Clarinets AFAIK, have always been transposing; oboes aren't, but the cor anglais is as were some shawms. Bassoons aren't, but contrabassoons are, and I believe the tenoroon is. I'm not sure about the various members of the old Dulcian family, to which the bassoon belongs, but it would make sense to expect the higher-pitched members to be.

I'm not sure that I follow your argument.

[Shockwave]

How would you explain to a beginner sax player why the alto sax part is written in bass clef and tenor sax in treble, when all through elementary school they were taught that the smaller instrument plays the high notes and the big instruments play the low notes?

Besides, the saxes read on the treble staff to begin with as transposed instruments. Why screw with what already works?

Oh it would piss sax players off incredibly because with multiple sets of fingerings to learn it would put them....in our position!

-Eric

[phoenix]

If instruments did not transpose, there would be a lot of ledger lines, which aren't too easy to read if you're not used to them. For example, french horn transposes up a perfect fifth from concert pitch. If they did not transpose, there would be many ledger lines to read and numerous clefs to learn. A piccolo sounds one octave higher than where the note is written. If they didn't tranpose, their whole music would be ledger lines. Same with contrabasson, except they sound one octave lower.