Ophicleide - possible to build?

[TheHatTuba]

A guy (whose name escapes me) who is selling a pt4 has a "modern" ophicleide in his collection. It has Rotary valves and a weirdly shaped bell bell. Pictures are on his site (the link is in for sale under his pt4).

[tclements]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide. Oh, want one in Bb, get a bass sax, same deal. Just use a larger mouthpiece. VOILA!

[muttenstrudel]

[TheHatTuba]

Robb Stewart can make them (i think). Maybe ask him....

[SousaSaver]

Robb Stewart can make them (i think). Maybe ask him....

I know he can, but that's not the point. I'm thinking of doing this for the cap-stone project. It'd be a nice blend of brass and woodwind techniques - pad installation, adjustment, regulation, similar tool dent removal stuff, possibly some machining of components on the lathe, and of course soldering and brazing, maybe some buffing, cleaning, degreasing, and maybe a lacquer spray (with cans of course).

Anyway, I don't have the money for a custom instrument built by someone else, so the main goal is something cheap (like those across-the-pacific horns) that I can do myself. I've considered a wooden ophicleide, but it'd be much cooler if it can be brass!

Building an Ophicleide would be an incredibly difficult project. If you want to meet the criteria you have laid out, you might consider a beat up old Conn Bari Sax that you cannot get parts for anymore. One of those might be missing some posts and that will give you the opportunity to machine some out.

Building an instrument from scratch is an incredible endeavor. Building something like an Ophicleide (which might seem simple on the surface) really isn't as simple as it may seem. I'm not trying to stop you from taking this task on, it just seems like more work than it is worth, and by the time you get finished, it will cost you more in labor and materials than an import copy.

These are just my opinions, I could be wrong...

[rodgeman]

What about a SUDROPHONE?

http://musikmuseum.dk/1TEN3RK.HTM

It seems to have the same Bell/body of a Ophicleide but with valves. It might fit your budget and have a similar outcome. I found the above link while looking at Ophicleides.

Thank you for a thought provoking post.

[TheHatTuba]

Robb Stewart can make them (i think). Maybe ask him....

I know he can, but that's not the point. I'm thinking of doing this for the cap-stone project. It'd be a nice blend of brass and woodwind techniques - pad installation, adjustment, regulation, similar tool dent removal stuff, possibly some machining of components on the lathe, and of course soldering and brazing, maybe some buffing, cleaning, degreasing, and maybe a lacquer spray (with cans of course).

Anyway, I don't have the money for a custom instrument built by someone else, so the main goal is something cheap (like those across-the-pacific horns) that I can do myself. I've considered a wooden ophicleide, but it'd be much cooler if it can be brass!

My point was maybe he'd be willing to give advice/tips

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Before taking on the task of building such an instrument from scratch, it is important to understand and acquire the skill sets to perform the job. This helps when confronted with the laundry list of questions you will be confronting.

Here is just a taste:
-Working out the sheet patterns, pre-forming, seem prep, silver-brazing, etc. Can you make the tapered tubing? How do you bend it? Do you have the materials and techniques at your disposal?

-Tooling? mandrels? jigs? do you have machining skills? Lathe operation; do you know how. Metal spinning?

-Can you hand form the tubing or do you need a draw-bench; where the hell am I going to get one of those???

-How do you make the keys? how do you forge brass, do you work it like steel? (no) do you have a pattern to follow? tone-hole placement? hinging materials? springs? Or can I just scab a bunch of old bull-Sh*t junk parts together and play make believe that I am building an Ophicleide? sorry, I am not trying to be snarky.

I think it is great that you want to set your sights high, but personally I think you should start by focusing at working toward obtaining the basic skills you will need to do general repair. (yeah, I'm a spoil-sport) Don't get into to big a hurry. I worked at it constantly for many years to develop my skills and I am still working at it. Over time, if you work hard at it, you will eventually collect the needed skills and find yourself in the enviable position of being able to repair whatever is on your bench and make what ever your imagination allows. Good luck man.

D.C. Oberloh

[Donn]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide. Oh, want one in Bb, get a bass sax, same deal. Just use a larger mouthpiece.

Instant bad ophicleide, though. The real thing appears to be a very different design - slender, with a long conical leadpipe.

But it's the only way to make a chromatic but uniformly conical brass instrument, isn't it?

[aqualung]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide.

Not quite, the keywork is quite different. On an ophicleide, only one key is open for any harmonic series. All keys are normally closed.

[PMeuph]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide. Oh, want one in Bb, get a bass sax, same deal. Just use a larger mouthpiece. VOILA!

Couldn't this serve as a good start though? If you found a cheap enough bari sax; tore it apart completely, used the bottom bow (you would nee to patch the hole as bari saxes have a port hole in the bottom) and then re-used some of the keys and ports to assemble an ophicleide. If you don't pay much for the donor horn and you get keys and ports out of it, (considering you don't count your hours of lobour involved) it would surely be worthwhile...

[SousaSaver]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide. Oh, want one in Bb, get a bass sax, same deal. Just use a larger mouthpiece. VOILA!

Couldn't this serve as a good start though? If you found a cheap enough bari sax; tore it apart completely, used the bottom bow (you would nee to patch the hole as bari saxes have a port hole in the bottom) and then re-used some of the keys and ports to assemble an ophicleide. If you don't pay much for the donor horn and you get keys and ports out of it, (considering you don't count your hours of lobour involved) it would surely be worthwhile...

NO - It doesn't really work like that.

I recently worked (in part, removing tone holes and burnishing ONLY) on an Ophicleide. You would need to do heavy duty key construction (which would be the easy part) and then hand form the tubes for either side. It would be VERY difficult.

Honestly, I wouldn't rule this project out, but follow Dan O's advice and put it on the back burner until you have the skills under your belt to take on such a task.

Here is a picture of the Ophicleide that was recently finished. Again, I only removed the tone holes and burnished out some dents. Someone else finished it off.

[PMeuph]

Just get a bari sax and jam a bass trombone mouthpiece in it. INSTANT Ophicleide. Oh, want one in Bb, get a bass sax, same deal. Just use a larger mouthpiece. VOILA!

Couldn't this serve as a good start though? If you found a cheap enough bari sax; tore it apart completely, used the bottom bow (you would nee to patch the hole as bari saxes have a port hole in the bottom) and then re-used some of the keys and ports to assemble an ophicleide. If you don't pay much for the donor horn and you get keys and ports out of it, (considering you don't count your hours of lobour involved) it would surely be worthwhile...

NO - It doesn't really work like that.

I recently worked (in part, removing tone holes and burnishing ONLY) on an Ophicleide. You would need to do heavy duty key construction (which would be the easy part) and then hand form the tubes for either side. It would be VERY difficult.

Honestly, I wouldn't rule this project out, but follow Dan O's advice and put it on the back burner until you have the skills under your belt to take on such a task.

Here is a picture of the Ophicleide that was recently finished. Again, I only removed the tone holes and burnished out some dents. Someone else finished it off.

So, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there is absolutely no parts on an ophicleide that could be harvested from another instrument(Bari sax). Everything would have to be custom built?

Fwiw, maybe my wording was a bit off and I didn't cover points that you mentioned, but since the op already referenced the need to building the tubes on either side I felt it was irrelevant to discuss that. Also, since the bottom bow seems to be the problematic area for the op's project, it seems to me that the only horn that would have a similar bottom bow to an ophicleide is a bari sax. Are there any other bows that would seem like a likely match?

[Donn]

Couldn't this serve as a good start though? If you found a cheap enough bari sax; tore it apart completely, used the bottom bow (you would nee to patch the hole as bari saxes have a port hole in the bottom) and then re-used some of the keys and ports to assemble an ophicleide.

So you're saying, use the saxophone's bottom bow, keys and ports - cut the tone holes out of the body and patch them into a new body that you fabricate?

I've seen pictures of a bass sax repaired with a salvage alto sax tone hole, by a local guy who's a fearless do-it-yourselfer. I guess pre-made tone holes and key cups would be a big time saver if they happened to be the right size. I think I would look at tenor sax dimensions, though, particularly for that bottom bow if the ophicleide is going to have the typical tall bell.

The problem with a more or less intact saxophone as the basis for an ophicleide is that you're going to miss the boat on critical acoustical parameters. With a little tweaking, you can get an instrument that can play notes, but the sound will be feeble and unfocused, because the saxophone bore profile is wrong. That's just my opinion, but I have put the mouthpiece and the saxophone together to see how it sounds, and it's bad. I suspect the fingering differences are kind of a red herring - holes on a sax below the open hole don't have a major effect on how it works, and I believe there's one large woodwind that has a similar all-closed mechanism (contrabasso ad anchia.) Of course the game could change with a bore profile like a real ophicleide, but QED, you need the bore profile.

[SousaSaver]

So, If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there is absolutely no parts on an ophicleide that could be harvested from another instrument(Bari sax). Everything would have to be custom built?

Fwiw, maybe my wording was a bit off and I didn't cover points that you mentioned, but since the op already referenced the need to building the tubes on either side I felt it was irrelevant to discuss that. Also, since the bottom bow seems to be the problematic area for the op's project, it seems to me that the only horn that would have a similar bottom bow to an ophicleide is a bari sax. Are there any other bows that would seem like a likely match?

No. Not at all. You CAN make SOME parts from a Bari Sax work. You CANNOT use a Bari Sax bottom bow. It is too big. You can use pad key cups and you can also use parts from keys to use as touches. You probably can't use the tone holes due to the shape of the tube around them. The curvature wouldn't be right. You would have to make those from brass tube stock.

The comment about having to fabricate the tubing isn't irrelevant. I mentioned it AGAIN to re-iterate how difficult it would be to properly make these from scratch.

Not trying to fight with anyone here...

[aqualung]

The answer is hidden in the cabinet under your bathroom sink. Use a metal trap, it's made out of brass and you get some dandy chrome plating as a bonus.

[pigman]

this is project close to my heart. It is do-able Its not an easy project The bottom bow is the hardest part of the build. The key cups can be turned or cast . There is a German company that will make the forgings. you can look at this site for help http://www.eppelsheim.com/hands.php?lang=enor" target="_blank you can lost wax the keys with a jewelry casting firm. Many musems will allow you to measure items in their collection. I have made tools for the body and have cast keys . Hammering the bottom takes skills that are mostly lost today. you can also cheat and cast the bottom bow. The bell can be folded and burnished over a steel as in the pod days the flair hammered . the bead or Kranz can be spun on a phenolic chuck (mandrel ) by a good metal spinner no need to cut a steel chuck. I have been working on a ophiclide project in my (not so ) spare time. I have also hammered a hogs head bell for a metal serpent. They may never get finished but I do enjoy the challenge. Go for it!!!!!

[pigman]

The answer is hidden in the cabinet under your bathroom sink. Use a metal trap, it's made out of brass and you get some dandy chrome plating as a bonus.

This is not such a crazy idea. the bend is little wide but it would quite possible work for a first try

[imperialbari]

There were this ophicleide summit in Berlin in 2007. My favourite on that instrument is Nick Byrne, who as far as I can hear plays lead in this recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUS-NJ8nSnI

The center instrument is a modern Eppelsheim. It is noticeable different in the bell flare profile, which points to a significance of that design aspect. From a source not remembered, maybe the ContraBass list, I read Mr. Eppelsheim telling that the original ophicleides from the 19th century never had had their optimal hole placement properly calculated, so that he started that aspect of the design from scratch.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

PS: I have tried playing a baritone sax with a trombone mouthpiece. A tenor also for that matter. Maybe they would work. If not these types of saxes still could act as donors for the bottom bow, which might be the toughest part to make from scratch.