New to F tuba land, I have a question

[WVUtubaman12]

I just bought a 4 valve cerveny f tuba. I really like the instrument, it has a great sounding and easily accessible low range. However, being a 4 valve F there is no "real" combination for the low G-flat such as the one prominently used in the Vaughan Williams. Any advice on combinations or other techniques for playing that note and really any other major considerations I should have going forward and adapting to this new beast?

Thanks All,
Andrew

[bort]

Maybe a 23 false tone? I've done that for pedal Db on a CC tuba before.

[chronolith]

I agree with Bort. Ron Bishop once suggested the 1-2 false tone valve combo to me.

[Bob Kolada]

Which model is it? I remember the 653/5 I played a few years back having solid false tones. They do slot differently on different horns. Try 12, 3, 23, and possibly even 13.
You could also get a longer 4th valve slide and play it as a 3 valver using the 4th as an octave key of sorts.

[phoenix]

Try 1234 and pull out your 4th valve slide until it's in tune. If this doesn't work, the false tone ideas mentioned above should work too.

[Rick Denney]

Any advice on combinations or other techniques for playing that note and really any other major considerations I should have going forward and adapting to this new beast?

If you can get a false tone to sound good, then you will have something to be proud about. That is your only option, unless you decide to play different literature, or to change the music altogether.

But that note specifically excludes 4-valve non-compensating F tubas. He wrote the work for tuba players who were using either the 5-valve uncompensated Barlow F tuba, or the 4-valve compensated Boosey/Besson tuba. (I seem to recall that Catelinet used the latter, but the former was the more common orchestral tuba in British orchestras of RVW's day.)

Rick "who owned a similar 4-valve F and used it to learn F, but not to play RVW" Denney

[Mark]

Try 1234 and pull out your 4th valve slide until it's in tune. If this doesn't work, the false tone ideas mentioned above should work too.

I'd try this if I were in that situation.

This is not workable on the run up from F in the first movement.

[Bob Kolada]

You won't get an intune F# that way, but if you could it COULD work for the rest of the run with alternate, not particularly exact, fingerings.

[WVUtubaman12]

Thanks to all for the great advice. Just to clarify, I'm not actually working on the Vaughan Williams right now, but it's the first F# that came to mind. Keep the f tuba advice coming and I'll try to put it to good use.

Thanks again
Andy

[Bob Kolada]

Got a pic of the horn?

[Rick Denney]

Try 1234 and pull out your 4th valve slide until it's in tune. If this doesn't work, the false tone ideas mentioned above should work too.

I'd try this if I were in that situation.

That would be mighty challenging in that RVW first-movement cadenza.

Rick "who has enough trouble playing it even with all the right buttons to push" Denney

[tubeast]

Forget it. Your horn was built to team up with a BBb and form the tuba section of a European military band/alpine polka band. Hardly any notes below the staff in this literature for you, sir. That´s what the real horns are for.

[Lee Stofer]

Hans,
Perhaps you should reconsider being so rude to a young student, who is justifiably proud of owning his first F tuba. This forum is for help and encouragement within the tuba-euphonium community, not for haughty put-downs and elitism. I am doubly justified in saying so, as I am not only a contributing member of the tuba-euphonium community, but a sponsor who considers this forum important enough to help finance it.

I could get really, really angry about this sort of comment, as I've professionally played in both a trachtenmusikapelle in Germany, and in a well-known US Army Band in Europe, where not only did we play "real horns", but we made real music. Yes, and I also subbed in a European orchestra, where the music and instruments played were no more "real" than in other ensembles. These people, and the music they make, is just as important as anything you might be doing musically. Please be considerate of others.

[bort]

A side question:

Seems like I've heard a lot about slide kickers recently on here. Would a fast-action kicker on like the 4th valve slide be sufficient for this? Or, is too much of a pull required to bring down the pitch?

Might be a cost-effective solution, and could be made to look like an ersatz 5th valve.

[Amilcare]

Just a note, the original horn was a TINY 4-valve compensating F from B&H played by a EUPHONIUM player;-)

[bort]

HA! Well, I obviously didn't think that through.

[chronolith]

Andrew can you post up a pic of the horn? How much slide do you get out of the 4th valve slide with it pulled way out? How good is the tuning of G and Gb in the staff using 1-3 and 1-2-3 (same for C and B below the staff)? I am just curious if this horn is capable of the Gb outside of the context of the cadenza run. Reminds me of the tricks trumpet players have to use to play the really low excerpt from Carmen that always comes up. Unless you can pull that thing way the heck out and the tuning is good with alternate fingerings your options look like this:

1. Lip and pray
2. False tones
3. Some kind of horn modification

Tuba players are problem solvers out of necessity. Whatever you did to make it sound right is always the right solution.

Also, just want to draw a line under what Lee said. Respect please.

[Rick Denney]

How much slide do you get out of the 4th valve slide with it pulled way out?

Respectfully, how would you make that work in a run from pedal F to high F in the Vaughan Williams first-movement cadenza?

Personally, I don't think it's possible even with false tones on a tuba that has good false tones, which does not include any of my F tubas. There's no way I could do it, but I'm limited in many ways.

I don't think it's being disrespectful to point out that the low Gb is generally not accessible on a 4-valve F tuba short of adding a valve. Nor do I think that undermines the value of that instrument in the hands of a new owner. Much literature exists without using that note, and one can sure learn a lot about playing F tuba on a 4-valve instrument.

But one reason I upgraded from a 4-valve F tuba to a 5-valve F tuba was to open up literature that included a lot of notes below the staff.

Rick "noting that many prefer to perform the RVW using a 6-valve F tuba to allow a 1-2-3-4-5-6 replacement for the pedal F" Denney

[chronolith]

As I mentioned Rick, I was just curious if the note was even attainable outside the context of the run. The OP mentioned that he is not working on RVW yet, and made specific reference to how to play this note. Just looking at solutions from the point of view of finding out what is possible first. I also suspect that there is not going to be a viable solution here, but a little due diligence is never inappropriate.

[WVUtubaman12]

Thanks again for all the advice. I think I'll just steer clear until I can front the cash to get a horn with more valves or get another valve added to this one.

Thanks All
Andy