Pro/Con for a LH 5th valve

[bort]

Though I have no urgency for it, I've always considered changing the 5th valve setup on my Mirafone 188 (I rarely find 5th valves on the RH thumb to be comfortable). I have the parts to convert it to the new-style "bar" lever, but haven't gotten around to having it installed yet. Recently, I've been thinking about whether I might want to try having the 5th valve linkage moved to the left hand. I haven't spent any serious time with a LH 5th valve, and it seems like the popular route is to change it TO a RH configuration. But, this is my tuba, so I don't care what's popular, I care about what I want!

So, what are some pros/cons of that setup? My thoughts:

Pro
-- increased comfort for other 4 RH fingers
-- I rarely if ever pull slides, so my LH is free anyway
-- much shorter throw on the 5th valve lever (and faster with my index finger too?)
-- eventually I want a 4 + 2 (or 5 + 1) rotary F tuba, this would help be a bit more consistent

Con
-- LH is not totally free anymore (page turns, slide pulls)
-- have to learn new fingering patterns, which are not necessarily any easier
-- I'd have to spend more $$$ to buy the parts and have it installed just to try it out (also, is it a more difficult install? the valve would need to be flipped over, right?)
-- Increased possibility of damage/getting snagged on something? (It just hangs off the side...?)

Thanks for any input!

[cjk]

This is what you need:



You can remove the parts for whichever hand you don't use. You can easily try it one way, then the other. No rotor flipping required. You can change your mind without having to have your tuba repaired again.

You live relatively close to Matt Walters.

How hard can it be?

[Ben]

You can check out the LH on my 184 one of these days - I like the setup, although i sometimes would like option of being able to manipulate 1. I find myself moving back and forth from moving 1 (albeit rarely) and engaging the 5th valve while playing. Either solution - kicker or double 5 valve has potential.

As for your "Con" list -
Fingering patterns: I found the LH 5 requires minimal or no thought for its use vs a RH one - it was grab and go for me YMMV
Page Turns: you may find this is less of an issue
Damage: I have seen LH 5th valves angled back a bit to help shield them from damage - this could be a concern, but I have a feeling you are not going to be throwing your horn around too much.

[bort]

Thanks everybody. I remembered that dual-linkage setup from your 180 (and other Miraphones), but I guess I never really considered *adding* that setup. Something to think on.

Any more pro/con thoughts would be good to hear. Thanks for the input Ben!

[DHMTuba]

My vintage 186 has the LH 5th paddle but the most comfortable LH position for me is resting on the 1st slide, even though I don't pull slides all that much either. The horn balances better and there's no tension in my left arm because the weight of my arm helps to keep the horn in place -- I can relax my arm and the horn stays put. Likewise for my East German B&S F with RH 5th.
Meaning that if a 5th fingering is coming up I'll need a second or two to shift my LH over to the side. This isn't as bad as it might sound - over the years I've become used to it, and if necessary I'll mark the part a few measures before. Just something to keep in mind.
(Trivia for you Miraphone fans. Bought my 186 new in 1975. The following year another guy in the studio bought a 186 and it had a RH 5th, so apparently they had just started offering RH. I tried his horn and the RH thumb trigger felt very strange!)

[tclements]

I learned with the 5th on the left hand so that feels like GOING HOME to me. I've adjusted to using my thumb. In the old days (when we all played Mirafones) many of us put triggers on the first and/or 5th slides to be able to keep our hands in place and use our thumbs for slide pulls. Really makes sense to me.

[skeath]

Both of my current tubas have a RH 5th. Since it is right under my thumb, a split-second decision to need the 5th causes no problems. However, my old Alexander had a LH setup, and unless I kept that hand exactly in place all the time, I would miss the opportunity. Since I manipulated a customized 1st slide regularly, I wound up seldom using the 5th at all.

In terms of being opportunistic about using the 5th, I much prefer the RH setup, and would never have any other.

[DHMTuba]

Bloke, you make an interesting point about switching between different setups. Going through it myself just now.
A couple of weeks ago I bought a Bruckner, and I've been practicing and performing on both the 186 (LH 5th) and the Bruckner (RH 5th). Unlike my brief experience of 35 years ago, the Bruckner's thumb valve felt great right from the start.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that switching between the two horns is no big deal. The only wrinkle is the difference in 5th valve fingering, because the 186 has the old two-whole-step 5th valve while the Bruckner has the "standard" flat whole step. Still stumbling over that every now and then but with a little more time in the practice room it'll sort out.
(I didn't put a fingering chart on the stand in the orchestra concert, but I will confess I wrote fingerings next to a couple of notes just for safety's sake! )

[tubaforce]

Hi!
I Like the LH 5th on my Cerveney, and as Bloke pointed out, you still have other digits available as needed...The other day, I had the privelege of playing one of Dan Oberloh's York restoration/recreation projects. The ( right thumb actuated) 5th valve felt quite comfortable. I am sure this was due to the placement of the lever and the ring, and the design of Dan's ring. It was a custom job made of tubing, and didn't cut into the web between thumb and finger...I think I could live with such a design. But you may still prefer the European left.
Good Luck,
Al

[rodgeman]

Hi!
I Like the LH 5th on my Cerveney, and as Bloke pointed out, you still have other digits available as needed...The other day, I had the privelege of playing one of Dan Oberloh's York restoration/recreation projects. The ( right thumb actuated) 5th valve felt quite comfortable. I am sure this was due to the placement of the lever and the ring, and the design of Dan's ring. It was a custom job made of tubing, and didn't cut into the web between thumb and finger...I think I could live with such a design. But you may still prefer the European left.
Good Luck,
Al

Do you have a picture of the thumb ring? I am thinking of modifying my Mirafone 186.

Thanks.

[muttenstrudel]

Con: You can't pick your nose while playing.

[tubaforce]

Hi!
I Like the LH 5th on my Cerveney, and as Bloke pointed out, you still have other digits available as needed...The other day, I had the privelege of playing one of Dan Oberloh's York restoration/recreation projects. The ( right thumb actuated) 5th valve felt quite comfortable. I am sure this was due to the placement of the lever and the ring, and the design of Dan's ring. It was a custom job made of tubing, and didn't cut into the web between thumb and finger...I think I could live with such a design. But you may still prefer the European left.
Good Luck,
Al

Do you have a picture of the thumb ring? I am thinking of modifying my Mirafone 186.

Thanks.

I don't have a detailed close up of the ring, but it was about 1-1/4" inside, and made of 1/4" tubing... there may be pics in one of Dan's posts.

[bort]

Is your Cerveny's 5th valve a normal looking lever? Or one of those Cerveny up/down types? Horrible descriptions, sorry, but I'm not sure how else to describe it!

[TheHatTuba]

Mr. Bobo's 180 that was recently for sale at Horn Guys had a RH 5th added to the original LH at the paddle via a nylon attatchment instead of at the stop arm lik
e the Cerveny.