Kanstul 5/4 Grand BBb and CC Tubas

[Ferguson]

Here are some pictures of Kanstul's new Grand BBb and Grand CC 5/4 tubas. The photos are poor, compliments of a phone camera and the setting of Kanstul's warehouse, plus that ugly rug. Both tubas use a .750" bore for the pistons, and a larger bore for the 5th rotor. The bodies are all gold brass after the tuning slide. Like the 4/4 tubas, the valve section screws to the body, making maintenance simpler. On these 5/4's the bell also screws to the bottom bow, so the instrument is made in 3 pieces. I believe the small ring in the middle of the bell will remain on the production models. It allows the larger part of the flare to be used on one of his standard tubas. Though a few parts on these horns go back to his G contra bugle production, most of the parts of these instruments are brand new original parts and designs.

The CC model plays very well. The BBb is very good too, but is not my specialty. I own a Kanstul model 90 4/4 CC, and I'm happy with its size, but this 5/4 is captivating. The pitch is right on, with only a few adjustments necessary: 1st valve D is a bit low, and F and E at the bottom of the staff seem a bit low as well. All these are easily adjusted with the first slide. Everything else is spot on. The CC is not a copy of the PT6P, but it's about the same size and girth, and reminds me of the PT. Since the PT6P is called the B&S 5/4 "York Model" and Kanstul's also been making York replicas, you can see why there's a resemblance.

This 5/4 is a big tuba, and requires more air than the 4/4. I don't think someone should automatically say, "The 4/4 is good, so the 5/4 is an upgrade." I'll stick with my 4/4.

All these tubas seem very well made, and are great players. (I couldn't resist the 4/4 for myself last year.) The sound is amazing, the response is good, the pitch is about right on. That being said, they have a bit less bling than some of the flashier German tubas. There isn't as much nickel trim as on the German tubas, and I'm not sure these are buffed quite as shiny or as evenly. (The models pictured have many fingerprints from handling, so don't judge the finish work by these images.) But these Kanstuls tend to be a bit less money, and come from a small shop of craftsmen in the US. And, they have foxy engraving and lots of gold brass. And they're a really rare vintage replica type of horn, and a vintage type of sound as well. I like that. This shop reminds me of what the Calicchio or Williams shop must have been like. Here are the pics...

CC model. You can spot the CC because the 5th rotor leads directly to the tuning slide:



Bell engraving:



CC model:



Back of the CC:



CC model:



CC model valve cluster:



BBb model. You can tell it's the BBb because there is another loop in the back between the 5th rotor and the tuning slide. Also, the 5th slide loop is longer, and extends below the rotor:



BBb model:



CC prototype:



Four tubas. From left to right: Grand BBb, model 90 4/4 CC, Grand CC, model 33T 4/4 top action BBb:



5/4 Grand CC next to the model 90 4/4 CC:



5/4 Grand CC next to the model 90 4/4 CC:



5/4 Grand CC next to the model 90 4/4 CC:



5/4 Grand CC next to the model 90 4/4 CC:



5/4 Grand CC next to the model 90 4/4 CC:



5/4 CC model:



Closeup of the 5/4 BBb body:



Best,

Ferguson

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Will Lee have these models at the January '12 Army Tuba Conference?
Mark

P.S. BTW, what is the bell diameter of the 5/4?

[Mark]

Very interesting. It would be great to get a picture of these tubas next to a tuba we all know, e.g. a Miraphone 186.

[Søren]

[bort]

Nice! When does the rotary version come out?

[Ferguson]

Why does the Grand BBb look slanted, while the rest are much more vertical?

Good eye. I forgot to mention that. Only the first one of each 5/4 is like that (see the CC prototype picture above). Its bottom bow is based on a BBb contra bugle shape, and the bugle bell needed to point up a bit Thus, the bottom bow bend made from that die is a bit less than 180. On future models, the top bow will be tucked behind the bell a bit like on the 5/4 CC, and the bottom bow bend will be increased to 180. If nothing else, it will fit in the new case better. I believe the pictured lacquer 5/4 CC bottom bow is hand bent. Later models may have a new die made for consistency.

Ferguson

[Ferguson]

Nice! When does the rotary version come out?

SF

[Alex C]

The top bow placement will certainly cause awkward positioning. With the inside potion of the top bow between the player and the bell, the rest of the horn will be positioned further away from the player's body. This makes for an uncomfortable posture.

That often happens when you recycle parts to use in a new instrument design (everybody does it to some extent). Kanstul would have been better served to design a new bottom bow so the inside tube could be tucked inside the body.

I have never been a fan of the 2-part bell either. If a 2-part bell was really a good idea it would be seen on high-end tubas instead of beginner horns.

But then... Kanstul has had some good products. It will be interesting to see if good players will fall in love with this despite these design quirks.

[bort]

How tall is the tuba? Either i never realized that the 90 was so squat, or the new 5/4 is an absolute giant.

I was curious about the 2 part bell too...aren't most bells made in 2 parts anyway, and then fused together?

[bort]

Also...I didn't mean to just hop in with questions first, before saying what a NICE looking tuba that is!

And I love the fact that these are made in the USA!

[rodgeman]

Nice pics. They look like interesting tubas.

The back of the Grand BBb I would like to see a picture of as it looks kinda odd.

Thanks for posting and giving us the scoop!

[tclements]

Okokokokokok.... I'll take one of each. SHEESH!!!

[GC]

Considering Kanstul's recent work and development, I bet these will be great sounding and playing horns. The one thing I don't like about them is the ring around the bell. I understand the reason for using them both mechanically and economically, but to me it makes the horns look cheap.

[bort]

Sorry, I still don't get it. Is the 2-piece-bell done just to eliminate this step? Could this be done still?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQIP53NE ... be&t=1m48s

[tclements]

I had a MW Bill Bell model with a removable bell. I though the ring assembly made the sound more SOLID compared to the 'one piece' bells I played.

[Bandmaster]

How tall is the tuba? Either i never realized that the 90 was so squat, or the new 5/4 is an absolute giant.

Yes, the 90 is squat... it would be considered a "compact" wrap horn.

I was curious about the 2 part bell too...aren't most bells made in 2 parts anyway, and then fused together?

This is really a 3 part bell. Look at the unfinished horn, there is a visable seam on the flair and the seam where the ring is located. Maybe Kanstul is waiting to get all the bugs worked out before they make a new mandral to make the one piece bell. I hope so... I don't like the ring either. I think I know why they have designed the bell stack to be removable, Zig told me once that they make their 5/4 marching GG contra with a removable bell because their silver plating tank isn't big enough to hold the horn in one piece.

[Tubawaves]

Kanstul 5/4 CC review

I visited the Kanstul factory early this week and play tested the new 5/4 CC tuba extensively. I found it easy to play, clear and even throughout registers, truly excellent intonation, and has a magnificent and beautiful York tuba sound. I played through all the typical excerpts, Charlier etudes, loud soft etc. Love it! The 5/4 has instantaneous response, and the "York sound" that is the goal for this uniquely American instrument.

I agree with my friend Steve Ferguson that it is different from the 4/4 CC - both tubas are very special, with similar characteristics. The original 4/4, 5/4, and 6/4 York instruments also shared similar characteristics.

While testing, I played technical exercises effortlessly, as if I had always played that tuba - very easy to play and similar to my original Yorks. When you "step on the gas" with this tuba, the sound just gets bigger and bigger....I can't wait to get it into the orchestra.

I should also note that this is not another York copy (though it has strong similarities to the 5/4 York CCs), nor is it an adaptation of Kanstul's marching horns. I spoke at length with Zig Kanstul, and learned that he personally spent a lot of time and effort himself "doing the math" designing this horn - really from scratch. Remember that Mr. Kanstul is in the original York designer lineage (Bill Johnson (York) - F.A. Reynolds - Zig Kanstul), and knows things about design and manufacturing that are unique to the American York sound. It is truly an American tuba.

In addition, Kanstul spent significant effort designing this tuba to be ergonomically pleasing. The 5/4 CC sits comfortably on the chair, and I could easily reach all of the tuning slides (not that I found much need for slide pulling).....very comfortable to play.

The ring on the bell did not bother me at all - but it is there now due to the current mandrel setup. If a few of you readers order tubas but don't want the ring....who knows... In the 80's, lots of folks were adding "tone rings" to their bells... I would advise not getting too hung up on the bell ring....it is not a hinderance, and may go away anyway...

I'm trying to attaching a link to photo of me playing the 5/4 CC...(not for my dashing looks)...but to show how it fits...this tuba is an incredible instrument, and is really comfortable to play. The tuba plays like gangbusters.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?ci ... 05C778!134

Hope my thoughts are helpful.

Thanks,

Robert Carpenter
Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra

[Tom Coffey]

Great post and pictures.

[TYA]

Has a price been set on this tuba? It looks amazing and must sound even better then it looks.

[Steve Marcus]

Will the 5/4 Kanstuls be on display at Midwest Clinic, perhaps with Lee Stofer?