Use of German F Tuba for Brass Quintet?

[Jack Denniston]

I played a CB50 in quintets for many years. For the past few years I've been using a Willson Eb. With the Eb, the high notes are easeier and sound better and the low notes are more difficult and sound worse, but overall I lke the Eb better, and so do the people I play with and the people who listen to us play.

[jtuba]

The guys and gals in my BQ didn't notice a particular difference when I went from cc to f. The cc was a 40+ y/o 184; the f, MW2250. I think only tuba players give a crap what tuba players play. I would never touch the Bozza Sonatine with f, but saw someone who sounded amazing with a PT 15. Maybe I'll bring my Alex f to the next rehearsal and see what happens.

The 2250 is one of those F tubas that sounds a little bit more like a large

Yes it does sound like a large tuba, the 184 is more "German". People always ask why did I bring an F tuba when they first see the Mirafone. If I could find a small cc with the color of the Mirafone with the playability of the MW, I'd use that for sure. For now I've chosen playability, I'll probably vacillate between the two. The point is we get so concerned with what tuba to use and our colleagues might not even notice. Just play what you have with good pitch, time, sound, clarity, and sensitivity. If what you have isn't working, there's probably something out there that does. I'm just too lazy to try and learn the Bozza on F.

[jonesbrass]

I love the sound of an F tuba (or Eb tuba) in brass quintet. If played well, the low range can be satisfying, and in many ways easier to play on a bass tuba than a contrabass. I personally believe this is mostly in the hands of the player . . . not the equipment necessarily. YMMV

[PMeuph]

bloke "I don't own one of these, and don't see myself getting one..."

However, isn't it safe to say that by the time the Bozza Sonatina was composed (1951) the french tuba was no longer in use?

[Wyvern]

Have played in brass quintet using CC, F and Eb at different times - I would say for me Eb works the best overall.

Playing my PT-15 I felt is was a bit over dominant and soloistic. Now I am playing my Wessex JB 700 I find that works a treat to provide bass and solo passages and I am coming to appreciate again the 3+1 fingering set up when there is moving around down low.

[PMeuph]

Unlike the way that some (no...I'm not singling out any historians or any readers of history...and I'm certainly not trying to pass myself off as any sort of historian) may seem to interpret history, people (farmers, office workers, truck drivers, musicians...) haven't tended to toss equipment in the attic/woods and suddenly run out and buy new/improved stuff by a certain "historical" date, or as soon as some different/improved equipment is introduced into an environment.

Think about "tubas used in American public schools": Just about the time many "with it" American tuba players were "into" front-action piston contrabass tubas, the "rotary tubas trend" (still going strong today) was just catching on in public high schools.

I am not known to be very good at interpreting or guessing at composers' intents, but when I see written-over-a-half-century-ago French tuba parts that seem to have just about the same range as the Ravel "Pictures" orchestration (very low to very high), I start thinking that those French pieces may (??) have been written for approximately the same instrument as those "tuba" instruments that were floating around Paris about the time that Ravel orchestrated that Mussorgsky piano piece (only 29 years earlier, and - again - with a six-years-long devastating war in the middle of that 29 years).

Finally, I try to imagine post-war France in the early 1950's. Surely, things weren't "all prettied back up" (after the war) by then, and (maybe...?? again, I'm guessing) folks used stuff that they had - and were very glad to have it...

...and just maybe (??) post-war Frenchmen with the wherewithal weren't particularly enthusiastic about purchasing F, CC, Eb, or BBb tubas "made in Germany" - whether new, used, or salvage condition.

Indeed you raise some significant issues. I am sure anyone who had a french tuba in the 50's and played Bozza would have used what they had at hand.

However, did you know that the Nazis requisitioned 25 000 church bells during WWII to have them melted into shells, rifles, canons, etc...

They same held true, of metal door handles, pots and pans, tools, etc... (One could also wonder how many brass instruments were melted)

While not much documentation has been done on the French Side of things (I haven't dug too much), Some of these Nazi requisitions were in France, and the French surely did some of them before their surrender.

While I would not position that all french tubas were wiped away, I am sure that many french tubas would have been used in ammunition making.

Here is the abstract to a mildly relevant dissertation...
http://gradworks.umi.com/34/10/3410938.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Edited for this info:
What about Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony (1949). (Messiaen and Bozza are Contemporaries, both having lived in Paris most of their lives) Would you consider this work to be written for French tuba or Bass tuba. (The later being the sound I am accustomed to from recordings...)
__________
To the OP, sorry for high-jacking your thread. IMHO, I have seen people use any horn (F, CC,Eb, Bb, Euph, Bass trombone) in 5tet. If your F works well with the group, go for it.

[Wyvern]

What about Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony (1949). (Messiaen and Bozza are Contemporaries, both having lived in Paris most of their lives) Would you consider this work to be written for French tuba or Bass tuba. (The later being the sound I am accustomed to from recordings...)

Remember that that Turangalila Symphony was commissioned by Serge Koussevitzky for the Boston Symphony Orchestra - so orchestration is likely to be geared to American , rather than French orchestra of the time.

Talking of tubas available in France after the war, there may well also have been German military band instruments abandoned during the retreat. My understanding from a very interesting book on such, is that German military bands performed throughout the occupied territory almost to the end of the war. There is a German air force band BBb in museum on the Channel Islands.

[UDELBR]

My understanding is that "tuba en Ut" (aka: "French tuba") was the main instrument taught in French conservatories 'til the 1960s, with additional study on F and CC required for graduation. It's certainly not inconceivable that Bozza wrote with this instrument in mind.

[Karl H.]

Appropriate sound? But of course!

Is it the easiest, most versatile instrument for quintet use? A different question...

And are you considering purchasing an instrument specifically for quintet, or just using what you already own?

IMHO, The Best instrument for quintet is a small CC or large Eb. You can find several examples of these types that provide a nice mix of flexibility, tonal range, consistent response, and good intonation, not to mention light weight... (not in tone, in pounds/kilos).

But I've never owned an Eb or small CC, and I've enjoyed playing in quintets continuously since high school (a VERY long time ago).

At the risk of encroaching on Bloke's Old-and-Crotchety Higher Ground, I think it's important to think of musical considerations like blend, articulation, style, and volume as something that is immensely important no matter what type of tuba you are playing. Simply expressed, do you need a BAT to play loud and a small F to play soft? Do you need a BBBb to play low and a French c tuba to play high?

I don't think so.

If you can you tell the times in an ensemble that indicate blending into the sound, and those times you should stand out, shouldn't you be able to do so regardless of the size of your instrument?

I think you should.

You asked for discussion, and I've discussed. YMMV.

Think beautiful musical thoughts, and make a great sound: the metal is only an amplifier of what's going on in your head.

Karl "who nevertheless is delighted to see all the previous posts in favor of Alex Fs" H.

[MikeMason]

one of the good things about quintet is they are a bit more democratic.I always reserve the right to veto any piece i don't want to play,and the bozza would be one of those love it,don't wanna work that hard...

[PMeuph]

What about Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony (1949). (Messiaen and Bozza are Contemporaries, both having lived in Paris most of their lives) Would you consider this work to be written for French tuba or Bass tuba. (The later being the sound I am accustomed to from recordings...)

Remember that that Turangalila Symphony was commissioned by Serge Koussevitzky for the Boston Symphony Orchestra - so orchestration is likely to be geared to American , rather than French orchestra of the time.

Talking of tubas available in France after the war, there may well also have been German military band instruments abandoned during the retreat. My understanding from a very interesting book on such, is that German military bands performed throughout the occupied territory almost to the end of the war. There is a German air force band BBb in museum on the Channel Islands.

Yes...but, Messiaen spent most of his life in Europe before 1949. Indeed the first time he went to America was for the premiere of the Turangalila in 1949... So that begs the question: Were there American, German, British Tubas in France left there after WWII? (this feeds into what Bloke was saying, that a war-impoverished nation would not have a suddenly high demand to build hundred of new brass instruments right away, so that they would use what ever was left over. Also, knowing how a lot of armies work, especially during wartime, it is quite conceivable that a Frenchman who would have wanted a tuba badly, could have bartered with a foreign soldier to get one.

Might I ask what that very interesting book is?

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/messiaen/ ... alila.html" target="_blank

[PMeuph]

My understanding is that "tuba en Ut" (aka: "French tuba") was the main instrument taught in French conservatories 'til the 1960s, with additional study on F and CC required for graduation. It's certainly not inconceivable that Bozza wrote with this instrument in mind.

Maybe I had read the "First half of the 20ieth century" as to literal of a cut-off.

My general understanding is that the goal of the other conservatories was to prepare students for The Conservatory (ie. Paris). So possibily French Tuba was still taught in other regions of France...

However, acording to this webpage (Under the class of Saxhorn/euphonium Tab) they say that: "in 1948, 146 years after the closure of the Snake class, a class of Tuba / Saxhorn is entrusted to Paul Louis Bernard. There are appointments to the winners of the Conservatory Tuba bass in 1948 and Saxhorn in 1951. Around 1953, teaching bass trombone is attached to the class of Tuba / Saxhorn."

To me Such a statement implies that at that point, the Saxhorn and the Bass tuba were already two separate instruments.
http://musique-harmonie.fr/articles.php ... g=53#debut" target="_blank

[Wyvern]

Might I ask what that very interesting book is?

It is "The Military Music & Bandsman of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich 1933-45" by Brian Matthews
http://www.tomahawkfilms.com/page_10/ta ... roductName

Includes quite a lot of illustrations of bands showing tubas

[Karl H.]

no higher ground here...

...just "lower"-grade chops.

Gymnastics, stuff like high e-naturals at pppp (right after low A's at fff) and other "quintety" stuff, are easier (for me) on not-so-big and shorter tubas. To be even more candid: I miss fewer notes.

The remark about considering two tubas on the Bozza Sonatine addresses the desire for resonance in the low range stuff and bloke's need for accuracy assistance in (again) the gymnastic stuff. Were I to record that piece, I would just about guarantee that I would use two tubas.

bloke "Missing fewer notes makes bloke less crotchety, but (unfortunately) not less old."

You're WAY too humble my dear Bloke...

And your comments remind me of the most amazing recording of tuba in brass quintet: the old CSO Quintet with Jake's stunning performance of the Bozza on (what I assume is) the York. This recording illustrates beautifully the points I made: that the size of the horn matters much less than the musicianship behind it. I can only dream of playing with such a rich, fat sound. And I really CAN'T imagine playing the staccato high stuff so short and with such style and accuracy.... hmm, perhaps that's WHY I can't play it that way!

Karl "who is often tormented by his inabilities" H.

[Rick Denney]

So, should we be tormented by our inabilities, or should we make choices that help us get the most out of what we have? I enjoy playing in a quintet, and I like music that challenges me. I use an F. I have used a small F with a great low range, and now I'm using a large F with a good low register.

There are a lot of considerations. When we are pretending to be a bass trombone while playing renaissance music, an F is a huge advantage. Maybe Jacobs could do it with a BAT, but I'm not Jacobs. The big, broad sound I get from my Holton just doesn't work.

But some music was written around the use of a contrabass. Most of that music, however, puts the tuba in the role of bass accompaniment. We have an arrangement of Amparita Roca that has a lick that is six-valve hell for me. But that's about the only tune in our book that really begs for a contrabass.

The other musicians are a key point, too. With my B&S, I have to hold back quite a bit with my quintet. That helps me also keep my sound from getting oinky in the low register. If I was playing with big-sound pros instead of fellow amateurs, I'd have to put out more sound. Even so, Daellenbach plays a very small C--really no bigger than an F--with high-end musicians and does alright.

But I don't play in a group that requires more than I can deliver using an F. The music we play more often requires blend than bass. And I play in the typical range of the music with more clarity and accuracy using an F. Those are my reasons.

But playing in quintet with an F that has a sucky low register is its own kind of hell. That application, though, has guided my hardware choices.

Rick "feeling more an equal part of the group with an F" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

IMHO, The Best instrument for quintet is a small CC or large Eb. You can find several examples of these types that provide a nice mix of flexibility, tonal range, consistent response, and good intonation, not to mention light weight... (not in tone, in pounds/kilos).

Agreed - Chuckie D, Harvey, and Fletch leap to mind.

But playing in quintet with an F that has a sucky low register is its own kind of hell. That application, though, has guided my hardware choices.

Also agreed - fortunately F's are getting better and better, and the rotary F's that I owned were very acceptable down there even if it involved a little extra work, but when I had the Yammie 3/4 F it was a piece of cake.

[toobagrowl]

I have never really liked the sound of rotary F tubas....or F tubas in general.
If I had to use an F tuba, I'd use a Yammie 822 or M-W 45SLP. The Yammie 822 is a bit "vanilla", but I'd still take it over the more "colorful", yet thin neutered sound of most other F tubas. The M-W 45SLP is more colorful than the Yammie F's while still maintaining more fullness and depth of sound than the other F tubas.
I will probably get flames for that

I find the vintage 'Monster' Eb tubas (with mods/updates) to have the perfect sound and balance for quintets. Modern Eb tubas and smallish contrabass tubas work well too.


On the flip side, I love the German rotary contrabass tuba sound for orchestras.
That makes me a bit different than most tuba players - I prefer a good 4/4 or 5/4 rotary contrabass tuba for symphony work and a 'Monster' Eb piston bass for chamber/quintet work.

too "personal opinions" ba

[tubacdk]

I have tried several times to justify using CC in my quintet, but when I listen to recordings, ask the preferences of the other players or people listening in the hall, 95% of the time the indication is that the F is the better choice. It's chamber music, the lighter/cleaner sound seems the tasteful way to go.