Tritone 5th valve on a CC?

[MartyNeilan]

I will soon begin the process of reworking the large old tuba known as BART. I will be setting it up with a 4+1 valve design. I was originally torn between a flat wholestep or a minor third 5th valve, but looking at the tubing and wrap I realized that I could just as easily make it a tritone valve. There are a few F tubas out there with this configuration, and it seems to be well received. Has anyone ever done this on a CC? Pros and Cons?

[tclements]

DON'T do a tritone valve! There will be no good fingering for low F. & There aren't really any players that are used to the configuration, so it'd be a total re-learn for everyone. If you were feeling benevolent, you could include extra pipes that would allow that tuning, but don't make it the only option. Better off going with the 2 standards: long whole tone, or short major 3rd.

[MartyNeilan]

DON'T do a tritone valve! There will be no good fingering for low F.

124 push or 14 pull?

& There aren't really any players that are used to the configuration, so it'd be a total re-learn for everyone. If you were feeling benevolent, you could include extra pipes that would allow that tuning, but don't make it the only option. Better off going with the 2 standards: long whole tone, or short major 3rd

That is a good point.
Was thinking it might be nice to have one valve to replace the 2-4 pull for C# and F#.

[tclements]

Low F: 124 push is always flat, 14 pull is really sharp unless you pull out ALOT!! Why not just have a 5th valve that does all that pushing and pulling FOR you? I'd LOVE to have one valve for those two notes, but the benefit you gain with the F# & C#, you lose with other problems created.

[Bob Kolada]

Anything short of 6 valves will require slide pulling, so why not go with a 3 piston valve block and a flat tuned 4th as a rotary on the thumb (treated as an octave key of sorts)? Fewer valves, less tubing and braces to deaden the horn, less junk to buy ,... Play it as a 3 valver til the low range, play it as a 4 valver and ride 4, play it as a 3+flat valve and ride 3,... How often do you have to play right above the open pedal for prolonged lengths of time anyways?

[tclements]

I THINK Bob is kidding....

@Bloke: with a 23 valve 5th, 235 F will be sharp and, will require a 5th slide pull of about 2-3 inches.

[oedipoes]

DON'T do a tritone valve! There will be no good fingering for low F.

Maybe stretch the horn to BBb and play low F with valve 4 alone ...

Wim (if it's good enough for Walter Hilgers, it's good enough for me)

[tclements]

@oedipoes, then you have the same problems, only a whole step lower.

[bort]

F# and C# aside, it kind of makes my head hurt to think about what a tritone 5th valve would be like chromatically from F down to pedal C. Not that this is a range of spectacular agility to begin with, still...

[tclements]

@Bort - that's what I meant when I said & There aren't really any players that are used to the configuration, so it'd be a total re-learn

[bort]

Nope, I understood. Just wasn't able to wrap.my head around the fingering patterns, and im not convinced they would be very accessible regardless of relearning them.

[tclements]

If you go onto the Gronitz web site, he has an F tuba fingering chart with a tritone 5th tuning. It's too weird, even for me!

[MartyNeilan]

If you go onto the Gronitz web site, he has an F tuba fingering chart with a tritone 5th tuning. It's too weird, even for me!

http://www.gronitztuba.de/assets/files/ ... CHNUNG.pdf
Interestingly enough, they must have the tritone slide tuned a little low, since they are still using the 2-4 combination.

[tclements]

Ya know, I HAD one of those tritone valves on my PF125 and the 2+5 low B-flat really doesn't work....

[MartyNeilan]

Alright, Tony, you talked me out of it

[tclements]

@Marty - if you make the 5th valve a long whole tone, you can always offer pipes to extend the slide to whatever the end user wants...

[IkeH]

Marty-

You doing this yourself? Lemme know if you need a extra pair of hands/ears/chops.

Ike

[DavidK]

My 1932 King BBb 1241 has a tri-tone 4th valve.
It makes the lowest register play very well in tune.
Only means an alternate fingering for low E (4) Eb (2 + 4) and D (1 + 4)

[Bob Kolada]

I THINK Bob is kidding....

Only a little bit.

The point of playing contrabass tubas, at least A point, is to have an easier time playing in what other instruments consider the low register. Why have 5 valves when we play 3 valve music most of the time? 3 "day to day" valves and 1 long one for the low register will do the job fine*. Less tubing and bracing on the horn=more resonant, simpler more intuitive fingerings (imo), the ability to have the long valve of a different bore and have more places to put it without being to tied to the other 3,...

I'm, kinda , putting my money where my mouth is on this. I'm getting an Eb built up (admittedly NOT a tuba but a valved bass trombone/cimbasso thing) with 3 valves. As it is it's meant to take the place of a bass trombone with the least amount of valves and least amount of tubing (3 valve F would mean no low Bb, 3 valve contra Bb is too big for what I want). If I really sync with the horn, in the not-so-long term I will have a larger 4th valve added as a rotary; most likely as a 2.5 step valve with a very long pull. Default tuning will probably be somewhere around a tritone, as possible on the 2J, 2280,...
The horn will actually be a bit bigger than my old F contratrumpet, so I know the initial concept will work.

*I can see a desire for something a bit more hardcore for those crazy brass band arrangements; I think I'd want a 4+2 Bb there.

[tclements]

Bob, I couldn't IMAGINE playing a tuba with less than 5 valves. There's almost NO way one can play in tune with less than that, without either a LOT of slide pulling, or lipping the pitch SO out of shape that the tone color suffers. We'll just have to agree to disagree....