Old B&S PT-10 vs MW 45s

[bort]

Ok, I know we all hate these comparisons... so here's another one. In my search for a large F tuba, I've tracked down both an old B&S (Sanders) PT-10 and a nice Meinl Weston 45S. Same price, and in my range.

I have not played either of these in recent memory, and would likely have to buy without trying first. Not ideal, but the price and tubas are such that it's all low-risk, and someone else would buy it from me quick enough if it wasn't right for me.

Just hoping for any general thoughts or comparisons. Pitch and intonation tendencies are important to know, the "low C" and all that business is not important to me, I know what to expect. Any real experience or anecdotes are useful, though I kinda just think it's going to end up personal preference. Wish I could afford to just buy both and then decide, but, that just ain't gonna happen.

Thanks!

[Ben]

Only advice I have for you is to find a way to try them before buying. It's really worth it. I flew out to CA just to try my (not overpriced) 184. It was worth the $$$ to not make a mistake on a $$$$ purchase.

Edit: not to mention I had previously had a different 184 shipped out on trial that I ate two way shipping on. It was a similar coat to just flying myself out.

[arpthark]

Approximately how old is the B&S, do you know? I made a thread a few years ago about my school's GDR-era B&S F. If the Sanders stencil is anything like the one here, you won't be disappointed. Great, sweet sound and very manageable intonation and response (what "low C"? ). The only really wonky pitches for me were D flats in and above the staff (tending low) and fifth partials (A, Ab, G) that also tended to be a little saggy. I would just use fingerings for the lower octave and it would lock in fine. You might find clattery, worn, old-style ball-and-socket linkages too, depending on how old the horn is. I just globbed some heavy rotor oil on them and they would get a little quieter.

That's about all I know. YMMV. Good luck with finding a bigger F!

[bort]

Yes, its a GDR B&S. I played a Sanders/B&S CC in college, and it was great. Never tried a Sanders/B&S F though.

Ben, yes, that is certainly the ideal situation. One is near, the other is very far. Already stretching my budget, and I don't that will be feasible this time. I doubt either will be a dud, as much as one might not totally be my style or have a "classic" enough F tuba sound.

[Rick Denney]

I'm with Joe.

Are you sure it's a GDR PT-10? If so, the dates will be between the early 80's (when Perantoni and Tucci became involved with B&S) and 1991, when the GDR went away.

If it was before that period, it will be like a "Symphonie" and will have a smaller bore in the 1st and 5th (and 6th) valves. This is desirable, in my view (also opinionated). But it isn't really a PT-10. B&S marketed it as a PT-9 at times, or using a VMI number (B&S 3099 or some such), but not PT-10.

All Sanders tubas that I saw in the 80's were made by Cerveny/Amati. This one may be earlier. Custom was tapping into the Communist countries in those days for the same reasons everyone is going to China now: Cost was low because of labor and prices were low because the countries wanted hard western currency.

Rick "who owned a Cerveny-made Sanders tuba that was new in 1984" Denney

[bort]

Thanks Rick. I'm not certain it's a PT-10, so maybe it's a PT-9, Symphonie, or something else like that. I don't know enough about these models to distinguish them from each other.

However, I've seen lots of photos, and I am 100% certain that it is:
1) made by B&S (it is engraved with both B&S and Sanders on the bell, as well as the blue B&S dealie in the main tuning slide)
2) it was made in the GDR (again, engraved on the bell)

Thinking this is going to be a quick and easy decision...

[cjk]

B&S.

PM sent.

[Rick Denney]

Thanks Rick. I'm not certain it's a PT-10, so maybe it's a PT-9, Symphonie, or something else like that. I don't know enough about these models to distinguish them from each other.

However, I've seen lots of photos, and I am 100% certain that it is:
1) made by B&S (it is engraved with both B&S and Sanders on the bell, as well as the blue B&S dealie in the main tuning slide)
2) it was made in the GDR (again, engraved on the bell)

Thinking this is going to be a quick and easy decision...

Measure the bore on the first and fifth valve when you get it. If it is in the .600's, then it's a Symphonie or PT-9. All four valves have a different bore. The PT-10 had a bore for those first valves in the .700's, same as the second valve.

But if it's the one I'm thinking of (having been given some evidence to seed that thinking), it's probably a mid-80's PT-10.

Doesn't affect my recommendation.

Rick "who likes the old ones" Denney

[jonesbrass]

. . . In my search for a large F tuba, I've tracked down both an old B&S (Sanders) PT-10 and a nice Meinl Weston 45S
. . . Pitch and intonation tendencies are important to know, the "low C" and all that business is not important to me, I know what to expect. . .

Good on ya! Play the tuba, don't let it play you . . .

sight unseen? PT-10, hands down. If high D and C# are a little bit flat, they are dead on, absolutely secure, and slur like butter with (D) 4 and (C#) 2-4.

bloke "opinionated"

Those look like CC fingerings to me, but I definitely agree. B&S, and I'd use 12 (or 3 depending on the horn) for D and 23 for C# . . . same with the G-Ab-A range, if that is a little low, 4 or 13, 23, 12 work great for me.

[jonesbrass]

Please. Don't doubt me (except when I'm wrong ).

Not for a second, Bloke. I knew what you meant!