5th Valve Placement

[arpthark]

General question that's not too far off topic: on the 6/4 York CC tubas now owned by the CSO, were the 5th valves original or added later?

[bisontuba]

My BAT has a sixth valve.

Where SHOULD I have located it?

Don't get me started... ....
Mark

[Peach]

General question that's not too far off topic: on the 6/4 York CC tubas now owned by the CSO, were the 5th valves original or added later?

Factory.

[TheHatTuba]

.

[MartyNeilan]

Tubas I have liked have had 5th valves after the main slide as well as before. In general, when the valve was before, I noticed that I like it when the 5th is very close to the 4th piston. No long dog leg, etc. Good response and less change in sound when the 5th is engaged.

(That's mostly for Marty...)

That was largely due to a combination of ergonomics and change in bore sizes. Original thought was to keep the fourth where it was, making it the fifth, and have a very short connector from the pistons (or even none at all with a step-up.) However, that put the valves too far over on the horn. Pushing the rotor further down and rotating it at a slight angle game me room to put the pistons where I needed. The rotor plumbing and linkage is a project for later, once work slows a bit and all the Christmas stuff is behind. It may ultimately be possible to stick the rotor immediately after the pistons with a bore stepup and have a different dogleg go from the rotor to the tuning slide. I will probably want to give what I have a try first and see what happens; the current fifth position leaves me the perfect "hole" (commented on by Joe in another post) to place my fifth valve loop.
After the tuning slide is not an option, due both to the diameter being too big for any valve readily available, and the horizontal slide. The horn starts getting bigger gradually but very soon and very steadily.
The instrument is still a work in progress, I have a few other tweaks in mind and may redo the leadpipe. (45SLP pipe has still not been ruled out but is over budget.)
So far, the overall sound and response is great, the low range speaks easily, and intonation is actually improved from before - possibly due to my attention to fixing little assembly issues I have found. "Dark chocolate" is a good description of the tone. Pitch is still not push-button-perfect top to bottom, but that would not be expected with a horn of this vintage. Slots are wide enough and even with four valves enough alternates and eay pulls are available to play every note in tune without major effort. The completed fifth valve will further enhance this.
Another option would just be to have long dogleg after the fourth and cut a fifth into the leadpipe, Rusk style, but I don't have a smaller bore rotor and have always preferred a larger fifth vs. one the same size or smaller. (YFB621 possibly excepted.)
Who knows, when all is said and done I may wake up and realize this horn is really too big and too much for what I do, and go after something Bruckner sized
Maybe not.

[Peach]

My BAT has a sixth valve.

Where SHOULD I have located it?

Perfect example...!
When you added the 6th, did you ever consider putting it before the pistons or was after the main slide the only practical option?
As I recall you went to great lengths to get that valve in with replacing main slide and small branch.

Cheers,
MP

[cjk]

Hi-
Yes, 2-4 --like a low B on a F tuba --might be sharp ( or a low F# on a CC tuba or a low E on a BBb tuba)-but why not use your 1st valve slide and use 1-2-3 pull if a problem exists?

Really? Use 1+2+3 and pull out the first valve a mile? If you're going to do that, you might as well play notes that could be 4th valve 1+3 and pull. If you're going to do that, you might as well just have a 3 valve tuba and use false tones below the lowest 1+2+3 fingerings then completely dispense with the superfluous 4th and 5th valves. Wouldn't you rather just play bass trombone?

Furthermore, I contend that in fast passages, I will be able to produce in tune 2+3+5 notes while you'll have horribly sharp 2+4 or 1+2+3 notes. You might contend that intonation doesn't matter in fast passages. I can hear out of tune notes in fast passages. Intonation in fast passages sure does seem to matter in the fiddle section, why would it not matter to us?

If you need to use other combinations as suggested, the horn itself might have problems...

Really? Coming from somebody who somewhat recently sold a 6/4 Rusk cut Holton, an old Alex, and one of those Jinbao F tubas? You'd like to *reduce* your fingering options? In tune doesn't mean nailing the tuner straight on, so having both sharp and flat fingering options for more notes is more useful.

A dependent 5th valve Does Not affect intonation--you might need to use an alternative fingering, but the 'overall pitch' of the horn will not be altered by this ( besides the discussion of the impending Gemeinhardt tubas with this type of system, look at the M/W rotary BBb 5v versions of the Fafner, Fasolt, and the 197-- with the 5th rotor option, it is the 198---also the Yamaha 321 euphs with a 5th v option--just to mention a few....)

Yes, the 5th valve in the 4th valve slide is an afterthought for all of the instruments you mentioned. They all were all initially produced as 4 valve instruments, then later provided a 5th valve option which you can buy later that doesn't require a torch and a talented technician. The aftermarket 5th valve is a good idea. Can you name a dozen instruments that came from the factory with dependent valves? I'm sure I can name six dozen instrument models with at least 5 valves that have no dependent valves.

Again, I'll contend that the Gemeinhardt were built to feel good. I have heard "tuba, you're a bit sharp on that note" or "tuba, you're a bit flat on that note", but I've never heard, "tuba, how does your instrument feel to play?".


I would also like to point out that, at this time, 92% of respondents in the poll have voted for options other than dependent valves.

[bisontuba]

Anything you say.......
Mark

[Peach]

The "5th in the fourth valve slide" compromises intonation (ie, compromising the musical product) for a (perhaps dubious but arguable) better "feel" behind the horn. IMHO, intonation is more important.

Has a conductor ever asked how it *feels* to play your horn?

When you talk about "feel" do you mean the consistency between notes?
ie. low G to F on C tuba = 4 to 4&5
If the 5th is in dependent it maybe "feels" similar to play notes with and without 5th but, as you say, with the lack of fingering options?

Thanks,
M

[imperialbari]

Somebody used to have plans about even a 7th valve:

viewtopic.php?p=268717#p268717