GG Contrabass valve setup/fingering

[Biggs]

I have a GG contrabass bugle (two valves, 1p/1r). It's not a very good instrument, but it is an excellent toy. My question is this:

The right-hand piston is a whole step - i.e. taking the instrument from playing a G to playing an F. According to my fingering chart, generously assembled by our own elephant, the left-hand rotor ('valve two') should be a half step (i.e. G to F#). However, according to my ears, the piano, and a tuner, this valve seems to be three half steps (i.e. G to E). Is this possible/was the instrument made this way/do I need to make my own fingering chart? Or am I missing something?

I've never been in drum corps, so maybe this question is obvious. Either way, any enlightenment would be helpful. Thanks!

[OldsRecording]

Hmmm.... Is the slide on the rotor out too far? On most valve-rotor bugles, the valve is equal to a normal 1st valve and the rotor is a normal 2nd valve. The only exception is the older G/D/F horns, and GDF contrabasses are very rare. BTW, the valve-rotor horns were in use from the late '60's to the late '70's, although quite a few corps used V/R contrabasses up until 3 valve G horns were introduced in the early '90's. Olds or Getzen?

[aqualung]

Put up a pic or 2, and I'll ID the contra and its tuning.

[Biggs]

Getzen.

[imperialbari]

The photo is not too helpful as the 2nd valve tubing canot be compared the the 1st valve tubing. However, if the 2nd loop only is folded back once, it hardly is long enough to lower the instrument anything beyond a semitone. Are you sure you didn’t press both valves when the tuner showed the pitch being E? Or that played the 1st, 2nd, 4th, or 8th partial? And not the 7th partial?

Klaus

[OldsRecording]

Looks like an early '70's horn. Just curious, where did you get the horn?

[OldsRecording]

No offense, Wade, but I don't think that's a Baby. (see viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39267&start=12" target="_blank" target="_blank ) Also, the Baby takes a small (bass trombone- sized) shank mouthpiece.

[OldsRecording]

getzen baby.jpg

I'm mostly looking at the space between the bottom bow and the rest of the tubing. On the baby, the tubing comes very close to the bottom bow, on the horn in question there is much more of a gap. Honestly, I'm not trying to start a war here.

[Biggs]

Looks like an early '70's horn. Just curious, where did you get the horn?

Bought it out of a guy's basement for $70. He also had the euphonium counterpart, but had inherited them from his father and had no idea what either was or where they came from. I had Lee Stofer do some (EXCELLENT and extremely affordable!) work on it to fix some problems with the leadpipe so I could honk on it for laughs.

I know nothing about contras, but I'm inclined to agree with Wade about this instrument being a 'baby.' The thing is tiny and very light - much smaller than any other contra I've ever seen. I also agree with the assessment that it is a 'death ray emitter.' It is just awful and I have a hard time imagining it being useful to anyone. BUT, apparently it was used professionally (?): an etching on the player's side of the bell reads US GOVT PROPERTY. An etching on the rim of the bell reads: US GOVT PROPERTY ARMY. It has the Getzen, Elkhorn, WI engraving as well. If this rings a bell for anyone, I'd be curious to know more.

Thanks for everyone's expertise!

EDIT: I'm happy to post more photos/more detailed photos if you're looking for something specific - thanks again for the help!

[OldsRecording]

Okay, I stand corrected. I was just going with what I thought I saw. BTW, the drum corps I march with actually has a Whaley-Royce contra, but a later, early '70's model.

[aqualung]

Bugles one and two octaves lower than a straight G bugle were legalized for American Legion competitions in the 20s. Baritones were marketed, but no contrabass models were ever produced.

In 1930 the single piston bugle was legalized. The piston valve lowered the G bugle a p4 to yield a D harmonic series. This gave the instrument a crude diatonic scale, just like a Bersag horn. In 1956 the free use of a slide or rotary device was added, giving the instrument chromatic capabilities.

The first contrabass bugle was a prototype built at Holton in the early 40s. In 1967 I was taken to their dusty 3rd story storeroom by designer Arvid Walters and his young sidekick Larry Ramirez. It was an attic full of prototypes and experimental models, wondrous things. Out of a closet they brought a contraption that resembled an oversize contrabass trombone. Which it essentially was.

The bell and a couple of branches came from a baritone horn. Then there were multiple coils of 5/8" tubing, and a single piston that dropped the GG instrument to DD.

A tuba mouthpiece completed the plumbing. It played like - - - oh, about 25 feet of 5/8" garden hose attached to a large funnel.

The bugle was never produced, and apparently the prototype does not survive. It was not among the significant number of Holton prototypes from the closed factory that were donated to the museum in Vermillion SD.

What did make it to the museum is a Holton contrabass I never knew about. It is a G-D contrabass built from the essential components of their BBb sousaphone.

The Whaley Royce contrabass used by the Geneva Appleknockers in their 1958 Winter Concert series was a front-carried instrument, and too heavy to use while marching.

The contrabass bugle was legalized for the 1962 season and a handful of corps bought the Getzen horns. They were in GG with a single piston change to DD, and had no chromatic capability. The next season the Titleist rotary valve assembly as offered, with half-step and full-step options.

The Getzens utilized the bell and a couple of branches from a single Bb tuba. The piston assembly was the same .560 unit used on their bass-baritone bugles. A tubasized mouthpiece was on the business end. In between - - - well - - - seemed to be whatever components were overstocked that week in Elkhorn. Bore profiles were a series of bubbles! I have two of these in my collection, each is different and one uses a bunch of trumpet-bore tubing for a half-dozen bows.

Whaley Royce and Smith Music Sales (built at Emo in the GDR) came out with contra models in the mid 60s. They were made with 4/4 BBb tuba bodies, but still at baritone bore.

The G-F bugle was legalized for the 1968 season. The piston was trimmed to a whole step. Combined with a half-step rotary valve, it mimicked the functions of the first two valves of conventional brass. Zig Kanstul began making the Olds Ultratone bugles, with the BU-20 Contrabass being offered with a .656 bore.

[Conn 2J CC]

As the owner of an Olds Ultratone piston-rotor Contra myself, I always enjoy reading threads on the old bugles. There's been a lot of good infomation in this one I wasn't aware of. Out of couriosity, would anyone know where there might be a picture of an old brochure of Olds bugles? I've seen them for DEG and King, but not Olds.

Thanks -

[imperialbari]

Wade, your second link doesn’t display a photo. Something you could fix?

Klaus

[Conn 2J CC]

Thanks for the pictures, Wade. I copied the ad, and my Contra looks just like the one you posted, except in worst condition. I really wish I had bought the Olds Ultratone Contra that showed up on eBay a few years ago that was in pristine condition and included a case. It went for only $350. Sigh....

Maybe someone will have or know of a brochure that could be posted. In the meantime, much obliged -