Alto Horn Mouthpiece

[bergland]

I recently purchased a King Eb Alto Horn, vintage 1977. Since it didn't come with a mouthpiece, I consulted my Bach catalogue and ordered an A3 Alto Horn Mouthpiece. It arrived, and surprisingly, was slightly too large to fit the horn mouthpiece receiver. In my online research, I haven't found anything to indicate there are different shank sizes for Alto Horn. No optional shank sizes for Alto Horn are given in the Bach catalogue. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Don

[imperialbari]

I have some interest in this topic and have heard very good playing by a player using this VB3 on a Yamaha 201 alto horn. To limit the number of various rims put on my lips I usually play my altos and flugels with a large Giardinelli J4 horn mouthpiece through adapters. However I got a Chinese unnamed alto mouthpiece with a larger shank together with a used instrument. It works very well on my oval alto and on my soprano trombones also.

Your mouthpiece not fitting your alto horn puzzles me. Has the receiver been changed to either the smaller mellophone or to the much smaller horn diameter?

Klaus

[bergland]

Your mouthpiece not fitting your alto horn puzzles me. Has the receiver been changed to either the smaller mellophone or to the much smaller horn diameter?

Klaus:

I appreciate your feedback. The horn appears to be original throughout its structure and the mouthpiece receiver appears unaltered (at least to my innocent eye).

Thanks
Don

[imperialbari]

What is the inner diameter of the receiver? If it is small enough for a horn mouthpiece, I would suspect a factory made adapter made to look very original. Should be removable, if not bonded-by-corrosion.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

I wondering if what you have might be an Eb/F alto horn. Could it have an F horn receiver on it? Check it out next time you are around a horn player.

[Donn]

I'm too lazy to double check this right now, but I believe the receivers on the alto horns in our household are big enough that a tenor trombone shank will fit a little ways in, though not enough to play well.

My guess would be, what you have there is a "mellophone." I'm not sure the term is rigorously defined, but in your case the point is that it may take a mellophone shank. You can mail-order them; not sure how different they are from F horn, or cornet or whatever.

[imperialbari]

When a North American says alto horn, I assume a tiny tuba. Pitch F or/and Eb (some come with an insert for the main tuning slide). Bell up or bell front. Front or top action.

But I do not expect an oversize cornet with a proportional or a disproportionally wide bell. Because then the term should have been mellophone.

Is there a misunderstanding at this level?

Klaus

[Art Hovey]

I have an old Conn Eb alto horn (peckhorn) which needs a mouthpiece with a small shank. A Bach 12c trombone mouthpiece just barely fits into the receiver. I bought a chinese alto horn mouthpiece, but it has a trombone-size shank. Then I found a Reynolds mouthpiece that fits perfectly. It's bigger than any cornet mouthpiece but significantly smaller than a trombone mouthpiece.

Old-style Eb tubas had smaller receivers than BBb tubas, and apparently there was a similar size difference between alto horn and tenor (trombone) receivers back in the old days.

[imperialbari]

In my experience non-oval alto horns (and their quite rare straight bell & rotary equivalents) never had same receivers as tenor trombones.

Piston mellophones would/will take trumpet mouthpieces, but not necessarily sound well with the shallow trumpet cups.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

I finished up work on an old cornet yesterday and grabbed a mouthpiece out of a basket of maybe fifty or so I keep at my workbench. The pitch was difficult to center until I realized I had grabbed a mouthpiece that was marked 'alto' but fit the cornet receiver perfectly. There's all kinds of stuff out there!

[bergland]

I appreciate everybody's replies.

I'm not in a position to measure the inner diameter of the receiver at the moment. I have examined this to the best of my ability and it certainly looks like one solid and original piece without amendment. But, I could be mistaken.

I'm also not in the position to send pictures, but this is a standard bell-front King alto horn in the standard proportions one associates with traditional alto horns. I'm not aware that King wrapped its mellophones to resemble this design. It also plays in the key of Eb.

[Dan Schultz]

There is some information on the H N White website that may shed some light on your horn. Here is the URL to the specific page that refers to F & Eb alto horns... http://hnwhite.com/King/Mellophones%20a ... 0Large.jpg

There may be more info elsewhere on the hnwhite.com website.

[aqualung]

Look at the back pages of your Bach mouthpiece manual. Two types of mouthpieces are common.

The Mellophone mouthpiece has the same external dimensions as a standard cornet piece. It is mostly used with the old circular rear-firing mellophones.

Contemporary marching mellophones and Britstyle Eb alto/tenor horns use the Alto Horn model. This has a trumpetsized shank, but the mouthpiece is nearly an inch shorter.
Marching mellophone rims are trumpetsized. The tenorhorns play on a larger rim - bigger than trumpet or French horn, but smaller than trombone.

Adapters, in any brass instrument, make a BAD mess out of the physics involved in the backbore and receiver area.

[Dan Schultz]

Look at the back pages of your Bach mouthpiece manual. Two types of mouthpieces are common.

The Mellophone mouthpiece has the same external dimensions as a standard cornet piece. It is mostly used with the old circular rear-firing mellophones.

Contemporary marching mellophones and Britstyle Eb alto/tenor horns use the Alto Horn model. This has a trumpetsized shank, but the mouthpiece is nearly an inch shorter.
Marching mellophone rims are trumpetsized. The tenorhorns play on a larger rim - bigger than trumpet or French horn, but smaller than trombone.

Adapters, in any brass instrument, make a BAD mess out of the physics involved in the backbore and receiver area.

What you are quoting applies to modern marching brass. These suggestions most likely did not apply to a horn made in 1977... the era of flugelbones and frumpets. But.... all of this certainly demonstrates that there is no such thing as standardization in mouthpieces, shanks, and receivers.

[bergland]

Here is the URL to the specific page that refers to F & Eb alto horns...

Klaus:

I think you may have solved the issue. I was unaware that King was producing both Eb & F horns in that model. Of course, without a mouthpiece, I've been unable to benchmark the actual key of the instrument. I appreciate your wisdom.

Thanks
Don

[Dan Schultz]

Here is the URL to the specific page that refers to F & Eb alto horns...

Klaus:

I think you may have solved the issue. I was unaware that King was producing both Eb & F horns in that model. Of course, without a mouthpiece, I've been unable to benchmark the actual key of the instrument. I appreciate your wisdom.

Thanks
Don

Wasn't Klaus who posted the King page link. Take a look at your horn and compare the 1st branch after the valve section. A short loop = F and a somewhat longer loop = Eb. If you can get your hands on a standard F horn mouthpiece and a tuner... you should be able to determine the fundamental pitch pretty easy.

An image might help a bit, too. It might be fun if you discovered that what you really have is a 'trombonium'.

[imperialbari]

In a trombonium an alto horn mouthpiece would be too small.

Alto horns were used in their own right in old American bands as associated with the Civil War era. They were part of Adolphe Sax’s Saxhorn family, where they were considered the tenor member, hence the British still call them Tenor Horns. Even if they mostly fill an alto function in the brass bands. The reason for the offset in terms compared to present day use, is that Adolphe Sax considered the Eb flugelhorn (still used in France, Italy, BeNeLux, and as we have seen this year, also in Sweden) as the lead soprano instrument. Modern Bb flugelhorn was considered the alto. The narrow conical brass instrument in the trombone range was considered the baritone. The bass was the equivalent of the euphonium, and the Eb tuba was considered the contrabass. This line-up of brasses continued in the US at least to around 1880 and was then followed by a transition period of maybe 20 years towards a concert/marching band line-up very much like what we know today.

The concert band was influenced by the orchestra and by old military usage of the French horn, which was/is considered more noble than the alto horn, only it is much harder to play, especially while marching.

There have been many attempts to avoid the problems with marching the French horn. Southern Germany and Austria used alto trumpets and alto flugelhorns. Up until WWII the German army gave right-handed single Bb horns to drafted players in surplus on the trumpet. Some US military bands like the DC Navy band have marched single Bb horn. The DC ceremonial band of the US army and the Coast Guard band have marched Eb alto horns. And US school bands have marched endless variants on and hybrids of the alto horn/short French horn theme.

The permutation of an alto horn and a horn receiver is new to me. Most horn mouthpieces have relatively narrow rims compared other brasses. Yet there are horn mouthpieces with wider rims. The only brand on top of my memory is Denis Wick. Go for the non-N models.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

In a trombonium an alto horn mouthpiece would be too small.....

This is true. But.... until we see an image we don't have a clue what the original poster has.

[bergland]

Wasn't Klaus who posted the King page link. An image might help a bit, too. It might be fun if you discovered that what you really have is a 'trombonium'.

Dan:

I definitely apologize for the confusion with names. I've just returned from a long stay in Mexico and both my mind and computers are in a state of disarray. I'm usually fairly good with the production of images, but at the moment I'm in a bit of computer hell, so the image of this horn will have to wait.

I already own a trombonium, so I know that the instrument under discussion is not one of these.

I'll examine the length of the 1st branch after the valve section as you suggest.

Thanks for your help.

Don

[Craig F]

Bach's spec sheet says the Alto has the same size as a Trumpet. You can download their Mouthpiece Manual.

http://www.bachbrass.com/mouthpieces/