Update Update

[Dan Schultz]

We got into some conversation about plutonium while cooking dinner this afternoon ... anyway, there was something about using iron from before WWII because it wasn't molded after the drop of atomic/nuclear bombs.

This got me thinking about why some old tubas sound better than their newer counterparts - could it be that the metal was processed before the world was exposed to our nuclear weapons, somehow having a lower radiation amount?

Sure, everything was exposed to it, but during the actual process of forming the brass into a sheet or tube, it was fresh, without the added nuclear fallout/exposure caused by the US drops and tests. It would make sense.

Uh.........

[Donn]

So given a theory like this, what questions would you start with? For example:

• Have nuclear weapons made a significant difference, in radiation levels worldwide? (I would say "no", if it's really about general radiation levels - there has always been a fair amount of "background radiation" everywhere, naturally present in varying amounts depending on altitude etc. Much more than the effects of nuclear weapons, except locally of course.)
• Given some exposure to radiation, what is the effect on the brass, hypothetically speaking? Isotopes of copper, etc. that might behave differently, metallurgically speaking, or were we actually talking about plutonium? How big could the effect reasonably be, in terms of say percentage of unusual Cu isotopes?
• What other impurities may naturally be present in brass, say as percentage?
• Given that there are more than one formula for "brass", will variations in its metallurgical properties be determined primarily by impurities, or by the percentage of zinc, copper, etc.?

[Dan Schultz]

Hey,

The Update Update thread is SUPPOSED to be stupid.......

Well.... it's certainly living up to THAT expectation!

BTW... we polished-off that bottle of Sheridan's last night.... along with the bottles of Kracken, Glenlivet, and Jameson. Good party!

[Mark]

Hey,

The Update Update thread is SUPPOSED to be stupid...but in a different way.

[ralphbsz]

We got into some conversation about plutonium while cooking dinner this afternoon ... anyway, there was something about using iron from before WWII because it wasn't molded after the drop of atomic/nuclear bombs.

This got me thinking about why some old tubas sound better than their newer counterparts - could it be that the metal was processed before the world was exposed to our nuclear weapons, somehow having a lower radiation amount?

Sure, everything was exposed to it, but during the actual process of forming the brass into a sheet or tube, it was fresh, without the added nuclear fallout/exposure caused by the US drops and tests. It would make sense.

Since I'm not a tuba player (only the father of a budding young tuba player), I hope that you guys don't get too upset at me if I write something non-stupid here (about tubas, I can only post stupid things, in particular dumb questions).

The nuclear explosions (mostly the atmospheric tests, in particular of large hydrogen = thermonuclear = fusion bombs) really did increase radiation levels worldwide. For the type of background radiation that humans experience, the increase isn't very much (I think at the highest, in the 50s and 60s, it increased by maybe 10% or 20%). And most of that increase was in short-lived isotopes which have since decayed, and dust that has been swept out of the high atmosphere, so today the effect of bomb tests is negligible.

But for metals, the effect is preserved. Once you irradiate steel or lead, it becomes "activated", meaning it becomes slightly radioactive. In the case of steel, some warships got significant radiation doses during nuclear tests, and were scrapped afterwards. In the case of lead, a lot of lead was used as batteries on nuclear-powered subs; plus nearly all short-lived uranium etc. isotopes eventually decay to lead, but often to unstable (radioactive) lead isotopes. And to make matters worse, old steel and old lead is recycled, melted, and mixed back in, and steel is made by blowing air (containing a little radioactive atmospheric dust) through melted iron. So today, much of the steel and nearly all the lead that one can get commercially is slightly radioactive. This is actually a problem for physicists who are trying to build low radiation apparatus; finding non-radioactive steel is pretty hard, and is usually done by looking for old ships; I think people are now lifting up battleships from the first war just to recycle the steel. For lead, there is some lead that was mined before the second world war, and used in cosmic ray research underground. In the place where I did my thesis research (a salt mine deep under Cleveland), we stored many tons of low-radioactivity lead that had been continuously underground since the early 50s.

Now, the slight increase in radioactivity in metals does not cause any danger. Any steel, lead, brass, aluminum etc. today is slightly more radioactive than it was 70 years ago. It only matters to physicists who need extremely low background radiation for sensitive experiments.

Anycase, the slight radioactivity of these metals doesn't change their mechanical or chemical properties at all. Whether iron (or in the case of a tuba copper, zinc, nickel, and tin) is a radioactive isotope or not doesn't change the metal properties. And a tiny bit of radioactive atmospheric dust in the metal doesn't matter either. So if an old tuba sounds different, it's either because it was built different (maybe a different alloy, or different metal thickness in places?), or because age has changed metal properties. Copper and its alloys tend to work-harden: every time you deform it, it becomes a little harder. Maybe old tubas sound better because the metal has slowly been hardened by vibrating? Or maybe the old tubas that sounded crappy were thrown away, and the tubas that sounded nice were preserved more often?

[Biggs]

I got my powers from playing a radioactive tuba.

[OldsRecording]

I got my powers from playing a radioactive tuba.

But you must only use them to do good deeds.

With great false tones come great responsibility.

[TubaRay]

What an excellent post, "ralphbsz." What's it doing in Update Update? Fortunately, Biggs and Schlepp successfully return this thread to its intended purpose.

[Dan Schultz]

..... Anycase, the slight radioactivity of these metals doesn't change their mechanical or chemical properties at all. ...... Copper and its alloys tend to work-harden: every time you deform it, it becomes a little harder. Maybe old tubas sound better because the metal has slowly been hardened by vibrating? .......

We've been down this road many times. Convention wisdom tells us that brass work hardens because it is formed/deformed beyond it's elastic limits or exposure to some chemicals. It's not likely that a tuba would harden because of the vibrations from being played.

However... I'm glad we cleared up the nuclear thing.

[Donn]

So where would I find one of these nuclear tubas?

Shouldn't be too hard to get one made. I read that China mines and refines 95% of the global supply of rare earths. I bet there's radioactive waste aplenty, free for the taking.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Every time I play my harmonic minor scales my Geiger counter goes crazy. However, I *only* ever play my Harmonic minor scales on my 1964 Holton 345, which was assembled at the Nevada Test Range at Area 51 in the Frank Holton Hangar. It also can go from mach 3 to a dead hover in 1.5 seconds. (You can hear lots of nice people talk about this on Coast to Coast AM after midnight on the radio. But they have no idea that they are seeing a TUBA. Silly kids...) Unfortunately, the last time I took the Holton out for a mach 3 jaunt to the grocery store I tried the old fly-and-hover feature and dropped like a crowbar.

Not recommended.

Now, my MAJOR scales show no radioactivity beyond the normal background for my locale. Go figure...

Were it me, I'd steer well clear of anything in either Locrian or Lydian modes!

[Mark]

Every time I play my harmonic minor scales my Geiger counter goes crazy. However, I *only* ever play my Harmonic minor scales on my 1964 Holton 345, which was assembled at the Nevada Test Range at Area 51 in the Frank Holton Hangar. It also can go from mach 3 to a dead hover in 1.5 seconds. (You can hear lots of nice people talk about this on Coast to Coast AM after midnight on the radio. But they have no idea that they are seeing a TUBA. Silly kids...)

Please do not tell us that you have beamed some of the locals onto your tuba and that your mouthpiece doubles as an anal probe.

[Chuck Jackson]

I hate going to the movies. Wife and mother-in-law dragged me to see "War Horse". I won't ever get those 3 hours or 8 bucks back. Even the score sucked. You have been updated.

Chuck"wondering if real Englishmen are being sick of being portrayed as 1. drunks, 2. local yokels, or 3. greedy landowners who prey on the denizens of points 1 and 2"Jackson

[Dan Schultz]

I hate going to the movies. Wife and mother-in-law dragged me to see "War Horse". I won't ever get those 3 hours or 8 bucks back. Even the score sucked. You have been updated.

Chuck"wondering if real Englishmen are being sick of being portrayed as 1. drunks, 2. local yokels, or 3. greedy landowners who prey on the denizens of points 1 and 2"Jackson

Yeah... my lady begged to see it night before last. She read the book and was waiting for the movie. I did OK with it until I was told it was fiction. Would have made a good story if there was even a few shreds of truth!

[bearphonium]

As of December 26th, Eugene's December was the driest on record by about 3.5 inches. After the last 2 days, it is not, with more in the forecast.

[Dan Schultz]

As of December 26th, Eugene's December was the driest on record by about 3.5 inches. After the last 2 days, it is not, with more in the forecast.

Southwestern Indiana (Evansville) has logged the WETTEST year on record. We had 66.62" at the beginning of December. Go figure!

Edit... the final figure to date (12/29/2011) is 70.03" of rain.

[Donn]

I gather Eugene can top that, historically, but usually doesn't. But what makes a place wet isn't just the annual inches of precipitation. For example, while western Washington runs around 30-40 inches a year, it's common to see more days with measurable precipitation than sunny days.

I have spent only a couple days in Eugene, but according the general pattern in the rainy northwest, this is the wet part of the year, up until as late as mid May (or probably late June this last summer.) Rain settles in, and may drizzle away for days in a row.

It's interesting to look how the world ends in various ancient religious traditions. The Norse version, as I remember it, is the Fimbul Winter. People look out their windows and say "spring should be on its way pretty soon now", but it keeps getting darker, and colder when it should be getting lighter. I suspect if there was such a tradition local to this area, it would get wetter until the earth just dissolves.

[gwwilk]

Dan's rain (extreme southern Indiana) barely missed me (SW corner of Tennessee) over-and-over-and-over to the point that we've had (up until the end of the growing season ) a drought situation here.

Precipitation is just like everything else we need--all told there's enough, it's just the distribution system that's awry and deprives some of their 'fair' share while giving others more than they could possibly use. Trying to fix this 'problem' is a liberal's raison d'être and a conservative's bête noir. Maybe O****...oops. I think I just caromed off politics. My bad.

[Dan Schultz]

bloke is in Chattanooga for a New Years three-nighter.

ahhhh... ' back to good ol' Central Daylight Time - except a few months early.

Huh! What time are you usually on in Blokeville? I thought you were on Central time there and Eastern time in Chattanooga.

[Tundratubast]

Weather report for Fargo, Yesterday, Dec 29, 29F no snow, Today, Still 29F, 1" of snow, Short sleave shirt, ball cap and scarf, If this global warming, or the Earth shifting from the Earthquakes, we'll take it up here.