Does this make sense?

[Dutchtown Sousa]

So my school's Yamaha sousas are going to be overhauled (we are doing a fundrasier for that in which I will be actively participating) but we had one go in to the shop to get repaired at the beginning of the school year (it had been messing up the year before but our lazy old band director never had anything done to fix any of the sousas after the many times we asked about it and he said he would, so the new guy sent it in to have it fixed). The problem was that the valve casing had been drilled wrong (goes to show how bad the quality control is at Yamaha) and the valve guide would occasionally slip off the track and make the valve get stuck but the final time it got stuck, there was nothing we could do to get it unstuck. So they said that the valve casing would have to be replaced. So it was replaced and they sent it back and another player played that sousa for the season. So my brother and I borrowed a sousa for over Christmas break and noticed 2 things:
1. The valve was still sticky (well all of them were) because they had not replaced the valve (we were able to tell that by the heavy scoring on that valve).
2. The people that worked on the valve did nothing else to the sousa, including basic servicing, we figured this out because the sousa was so stuffy (stuffier than the other ones which are pretty stuffy) any time I tried to accent a note, play an extremely short note, or jump octaves the sound broke up and I could tell the response is terrible.
So question is, does it make sense that a Sousaphone would be sent to the shop, and a month later it comes back and they only addressed the major issue and not any of the others (such as not reattaching a spit valve that came off and the hole is obviously covered in tape)? Is there anything I can do to make the sousa less stuffy? I have access to soap, water, and a HW Brass-Saver Tuba snake (honestly not a very good product, the plastic strip/wire is too flimsy and flexible causing it to bunch up on itself, So I can't particularly recommend it because it handles curves in piping like an American car and a turn). What are the main areas to focus on when cleaning?

[imperialbari]

Don’t know Yamaha sousaphones,my suspicion would be about plastic valve guides so badly worm that they will not stay in the groove. If all leaks are fixed and and all foreign matters are removed from the bore, misaligned valves may be the cause for stuffiness.

Klaus

[Dutchtown Sousa]

Don’t know Yamaha sousaphones,my suspicion would be about plastic valve guides so badly worm that they will not stay in the groove. If all leaks are fixed and and all foreign matters are removed from the bore, misaligned valves may be the cause for stuffiness.

Klaus

The guides were worn but what went wrong with drilling the valves was the channel was too shallow and too wide (a problem on most of our sousas as they have a good couple of millimeters of play).

[Dan Schultz]

...... The guides were worn but what went wrong with drilling the valves was the channel was too shallow and too wide (a problem on most of our sousas as they have a good couple of millimeters of play).

What you are saying here makes very little sense. I don't buy the idea of the holes being drilled off cause the guides to not contact the guide slots. Are you trying to run the valve guides with the plastic that's normally molded around the metal insert completely worn away?

Seriously... you guys need to find a good repairman in your area. Are some of the band 'dads' trying to work on the horns?

[Dutchtown Sousa]

...... The guides were worn but what went wrong with drilling the valves was the channel was too shallow and too wide (a problem on most of our sousas as they have a good couple of millimeters of play).

What you are saying here makes very little sense. I don't buy the idea of the holes being drilled off cause the guides to not contact the guide slots. Are you trying to run the valve guides with the plastic that's normally molded around the metal insert completely worn away?

Seriously... you guys need to find a good repairman in your area. Are some of the band 'dads' trying to work on the horns?

The channel in that valve casing was visibly different than the other channels on the other sousas (and the other channels on the other valves of that sousa). The shop we sent it to had to send it somewhere else because they could not do the required repair. The plastic on the guide was worn but was similar to the wear on the other valves that stick (every single one of the valves on all of the sousas stick even after cleaning out the valve casing and oiling the valves).
And to answer your question, no band parents work on any instruments and as far as I know only one of them actually plays an instrument (trombone) and I know he doesn't work on instruments. The people that do work on them is some local shop by the name of Attina's Music and I know virtually nothing about them except they come to the schools once a week.

[jonesbrass]

The channel in that valve casing was visibly different than the other channels on the other sousas (and the other channels on the other valves of that sousa). The shop we sent it to had to send it somewhere else because they could not do the required repair. The plastic on the guide was worn but was similar to the wear on the other valves that stick (every single one of the valves on all of the sousas stick even after cleaning out the valve casing and oiling the valves).
And to answer your question, no band parents work on any instruments and as far as I know only one of them actually plays an instrument (trombone) and I know he doesn't work on instruments. The people that do work on them is some local shop by the name of Attina's Music and I know virtually nothing about them except they come to the schools once a week.

If the shop is reputable and has not performed the repair to your satisfaction, the person who paid has every right to take it back and expect it to be made right. That's what I'd recommend.
Looks like you're south of Atlanta. There are only two places in the Atlanta metro area I ever allowed to work on my horns. Rich Ita (http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com" target="_blank) in Marietta or Ken Stanton's guys (http://www.kenstanton.net" target="_blank) in Marietta, in a pinch.

[tbn.al]

Get your band director to allow you to take the Sousa to Rich. He's on the North side of Atlanta, 30062. Better not wait. He is backed up to nearly forever.

[GC]

Kevin at North Georgia Horn Works in Kennesaw is good, and Bayne Dobbins in Cartersville also does excellent work.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

I guess I better pay this Rich Ita guy a visit. Believe it or not he has been recommended to me on several other occasions regarding my great-uncle's early 1900's trumpet that sat for 30 years that is in need of a cleaning and minor repair. He must be some sort of instrument repairman celebrity as I have had people in Florida to people in Ohio to recommend him. I shall have to ask my band director his opinion on the repair (believe it or not he never accessed the quality of the repair) and if he could send the sousas to Rich. I'm assuming he cannot use another repair shop unfortunately because the Attina's Music Store probably has a contract with the school board.

[SousaSaver]

Here are a few common problems with Yamaha Sousaphones (in my humble opinion):

1: tight tolerances on the valves mean that any dirt or yuck in the casings or knuckles can cause the valves to hang up. Swab them out as best as you can.
2: the soft thin metal used to make the casings can sometimes easily be distorted by the smallest amount of torque being applied or damage somewhere in the cluster (or even the mouth pipe) and cause the valves to hang up.
3: valve guides - sometimes the guides can slip causing big problems, or they can wear causing the valve to spin freely in the casing. You can now buy the plastic guides with metal inserts which help a bit.

If the horn is "stuffy" or response is funny, first check that there isn't anything stuck in the bore of the instrument past the valve section, then check the valve alignment.

A wise man once told me "I can't fix it over the phone" or in this case the internet...but I can try to be helpful.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

In perfect working order, they are a just-as-expensive-as-Conn-20K-sousaphone which does NOT play NEARLY as well as (even) an Eastlake-manufactured 20K.

So what would you say is the best playing sousaphone (in your opinion)? Our sousa section is 5 deep this year and projected between 6 and 12 players next year and if we cannot locate enough extra sousas that other schools are not using we will have to buy some new ones or some used ones in good condition. They will all have to be silver plate and fully brass so that everyone eventually develops back problems (weight will sort of be a problem next year because we will have a few female players but you can't sacrifice the visual appeal of silver plate for comfort).

[toobagrowl]

So what would you say is the best playing sousaphone (in your opinion)? Our sousa section is 5 deep this year and projected between 6 and 12 players next year and if we cannot locate enough extra sousas that other schools are not using we will have to buy some new ones or some used ones in good condition. They will all have to be silver plate and fully brass so that everyone eventually develops back problems (weight will sort of be a problem next year because we will have a few female players but you can't sacrifice the visual appeal of silver plate for comfort).

Bloke likes the old H.N. White (King) and especially the old Conn 14K sousas. He CRAVES them Can't go wrong with the old King and Conn BBb souzys.
But if I were a band director, I'd prolly get the 'hybrid' King BBb souzys - lacquered brass or silverplated brass bell with a fiberglass body. That way, you have most of the 'silver look & sound' (because of the bell) with the lighter weight/fewer dents & repairs (because of the body).

http://www.wwbw.com/King-2360-Hybrid-Se ... 31045.wwbw" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Dutchtown Sousa]

So what would you say is the best playing sousaphone (in your opinion)? Our sousa section is 5 deep this year and projected between 6 and 12 players next year and if we cannot locate enough extra sousas that other schools are not using we will have to buy some new ones or some used ones in good condition. They will all have to be silver plate and fully brass so that everyone eventually develops back problems (weight will sort of be a problem next year because we will have a few female players but you can't sacrifice the visual appeal of silver plate for comfort).

Bloke likes the old H.N. White (King) and especially the old Conn 14K sousas. He CRAVES them Can't go wrong with the old King and Conn BBb souzys.
But if I were a band director, I'd prolly get the 'hybrid' King BBb souzys - lacquered brass or silverplated brass bell with a fiberglass body. That way, you have most of the 'silver look & sound' (because of the bell) with the lighter weight/fewer dents & repairs (because of the body).

http://www.wwbw.com/King-2360-Hybrid-Se ... 31045.wwbw" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Well I will have to recommend buy older ones to my band director since that will probably save a lot of money. Are the older sousas better quality also? I might have to ask about hybrid sousas for the female players because those girls are pretty small and as a section we require the typical sousa dancing and then some

[Dutchtown Sousa]

would you consider the Yamaha sousa to be good in terms of the thickness of the metal? It's the only sousa i have ever played but i know it weighs more than most other currently manufactured sousaphones. I could add that another problem with yamaha sousaphones is that the solder joints are terrible as 3 of the 5 sousaphones we use have broken bits, mouthpipes, or mouthpipe receivers.

[GC]

If Willson made a sousaphone it would probably be heavy as lead, built like a tank, would sound great, and would come with a coupon for free chiropractic treatments.

Sorry, ADHD.

[toobagrowl]

Well I will have to recommend buy older ones to my band director since that will probably save a lot of money. Are the older sousas better quality also? I might have to ask about hybrid sousas for the female players because those girls are pretty small and as a section we require the typical sousa dancing and then some

IMO, the several-decades-old King and Conn BBb sousas are overall the best. I prefer the Kings. But even the 1980s - present UMI/Conn-Selmer King and Conn souzys are fine horns.

[toobagrowl]

...Yamaha sousaphones, sonically, are disappointing - particularly when one considers the very high pricing.

I've heard some pretty good sounds emitted from Yamaha sousas - even the fiberglass models.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

Slept to long in the afternoon...so... sousaphones

Southern University just bought new hybrid sousaphone this year. They had been using fiberglass Kings (I think), but moved up to brass bells and new bodies - hence the new hybrid sousaphones.

Having played on Yamaha sousaphones, old 1960s Kings, Jupiter hybrids, and old Conns, Yamaha sound about as good as any sousaphone made today. Weight is no issue - how heavy are bass drums? Toms (or whatever the 6 drum thing is called)? 22-inch marching cymbals? The modern sousaphone is light by comparison. IIRC, the 20K weigh just under 30 pounds (maybe under 28), the Yamaha weighs a little less than that, and then every other 3v sousaphone weighs somewhere between 24 and 26 pounds. It rests on your shoulder the entire time! What's difficult about that? You're surely not playing a marching euphonium or even contrabass bugle or marching tuba, holding it in front of you half the time. Is it really so bad that some kids just get a little more fit and put on some muscle? Or are we gonna complain that the 20+ pounds are just too much for the weak systems and increasingly annoying/complaining students? Marching band is work. Think of the percussionists - sure, sometimes the bigger guys/gals get the 32" bass drum because they can support that weight, but they still need to work at it to hold it there. Same thing with the sousaphone, it's just a weight - if you don't like it grab a wheelchair and sit down with your tuba... sure marching band. This is why I don't like whiners in marching band.

It shouldn't matter how many players you have - you have to work with what you have and play together. A nice example of this is, well maybe not nice for some of you , is looking at HBCU's like VSU and NSU. VSU has mostly had a small number of players - they're good and play together so it SOUNDS louder. NSU - also good players, but they don't seem to have the same sort of togetherness because there are more of them. Yes it sounds loud, but in comparison to the number of players, it's actually less.

The price of a new sousaphone is prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't purchase any of the new one, a used sousaphone is much better than any new sousaphone. Even more so since many of these new sousaphones are bought for high school students who don't care about the instruments or the program enough to take care of these expensive and thin brass instruments. The schools I've attended have purchased new sousaphones almost every year - the Yamahas, even with the discount that my college got for being a Yamaha only school, are somewhere around 6000 or so. The director was cringing about buying a new sousaphone or even send the brand new one in for an overhaul because some freshman decided he could disregard rules and trash the instrument.

Silver vs Lacquer? For a school with an unlimited budget and kids that understand how to treat instruments, silver. For everyone else, lacquer is they way to go as it doesn't need to be cleaned as often and hides some of the wear due to the yellow-ish hue of the reflection (things look darker and therefore don't really stand out as much).

As long as the sousaphones are abused and treated as a $7,000++ piece of equipment, they should last a real long time. You're there to make music, not throw around instrument or dancing or anything other than blow into one end and fiddle with some valves, everything else is secondary.

Yes the old sousas at Southern were King, and they only switched because someone bought the section the hybrids and they now have those bells ringing. I like the look of lacquer more in a way (partially biased because of all the times i have had to polish our sousaphones then someone puts their hand on the bell) but because of the fact all of the sousas we currently have are silver (unless we decide to get rid of them if the repairs are too costly) we will be getting silver. Now to me the weight is not an issue (although heavier than most modern sousas, which are 17-25lbs, i think i saw 30lbs, but still not that bad) but we had one of our best tuba players (in the concert band) transfer to baritone because was too pussy to go through the break in period filled with sore shoulders and such, but of course he said that it made him feel shorter because he is only like 5'5" and deemed that was a perfectly good excuse. I am not really to worried about these girls transferring to another instrument (well we do need better trumpets and more mellophone players but that's sort of a difficult switch) because each of them tried on a sousa for a period of several minutes to start to feel the burn and said that they still wanted to play the Sousa instead of something else, even one that looked to weigh only a bit over 100lbs said she would at least try. One of them said that she would she didn't care how much it hurt at first, she wouldn't quit. Now I wish I saw that determination from the guy that quit after a single 2 hour music practice that involved no marching and included several breaks while our new band director addressed the several downfalls of all the other sections. Now I can't say bass drums are heavy because they weigh maybe 15 lbs tops (well at least the ones we have) and have shoulder and waistline support. Tenor drums are heavy I can agree with that but again they have fully shoulder support and waistline support unlike the sousaphone's one shoulder approach. We don't have full size marching cymbals but I know they are heavy as lead. Same for a Contrabass and somewhat so for a marching euphonium. Hopefully the weight won't be too much for the incoming people. One thing a friend of mine did was that a month before marching band practice started, he took a 25lb weight and some rope and hung it from his shoulder to prep himself. I have decided I will write up a guide/list of suggestions of how to prepare themselves to take on the responsibility of a bleeping expensive instrument and to at the same time not hurt the section because of their inability to lift a slightly heavy but more bulky object.
Well I think VSU an amazing sousaphone section that is unfortunately not supported by the rest of the band. Give SU a sousa section like Horsepower and SU would easily be the most dominate HBCU out there. Part of their success in achieving their volume has to deal with their togetherness, but whether you know it or not, I was told by VSU's one of cameramen and alumni (goes by TheGentleman1911 on youtube) every single Horsepower member carries a LM-12 (as well as a Conn Helleberg I believe). Now from what I have read you and others say, that is definitely one of the loudest mouthpieces out there. Other sousa sections could be as loud if they were to also use LM-12s I would assume (I have heard most sections use Conn Helleberg or Bach Mega Tone).
I do agree the playing of the music come first and the dancing comes second but the dancing is important for a few reasons:
1. many people wanted to see more dancing out of the sousa section
2. most of the songs I have arranged for the band just won't be right without dancing
3. dancing sousaphonists (not sure if that is a word) have been a major cause of either a kid entering middle school to either just join the band or even become a tuba player or for students entering highschool, a draw for people to either stay in the band and join marching band or become sousaphone players.

[Dutchtown Sousa]

So I told my band director what the best sousas were and that they would be cheaper than new ones but he said that he is at the mercy of the county when it comes to getting more instruments. First the county will go around and get the extra silver sousas at other schools (last year we used a Jupiter from another school which was seemingly better than our Yamahas, and that may have been because it wasn't broken) then if there are not enough they will purchase more, but as it works it is on a contract with bids instead of being able to get something off of ebay for what may be a much lower price. Problem with the school board buying any instruments is that they are not musicians so they never test which is better. That is why some of the schools in the county have some terrible playing and sounding Besson tubas (the 4/4 with the 3 valves on the top instead of on the side, and the 4th valve placed somewhere else entirely) instead of the well playing/sounding BBb Miraphone 186-4U that we have or the inexpensive but well playing/sounding BBb St. Petersburg 202 4 valve.

[imperialbari]

Some school systems also in my country are prevented from buying used equipment, possibly because they don’t want anybody loading off outdated equipment on the taxpayers. Usually doesn’t go for orchestras and conservatories.

You may like the Besson 3+1P instruments or not, but writing them off totally isn’t necessarily right. Only with their 3+1P non-compensating euphoniums the good samples are very rare.

Klaus