Question about the clones...

[Smokeytuba]

Straighten me out on the whole clone world.....Is there one factory and whomever the importer is, is having their name put on the horn? Where each importer may have their own standards as far as quality and what is accepted? Or, is there a factory for each importer and they're all making similar clones to popular models?
Just a question that I've never found a concrete answer to in searching....

[The Big Ben]

Yes. Really.

[Wyvern]

Straighten me out on the whole clone world.....Is there one factory and whomever the importer is, is having their name put on the horn? Where each importer may have their own standards as far as quality and what is accepted? Or, is there a factory for each importer and they're all making similar clones to popular models?
Just a question that I've never found a concrete answer to in searching....

To try and answer your questions.

1) There are literally hundreds of factories producing brass instruments in China (even us importing do not know the exact number). I suspect many just produce components, or do assembly.
2) Often apparently the same model is made by different factories to differing quality standards. So a XXX model from one importer may not be the same as the XXX model from another.
3) One factory will supply multiple importers and often other factories (sort of co-operative system?)
4) An importer may well get instruments from multiple factories
5) Each importer will have their own acceptable quality standards (for example I will not stock any at Wessex Tubas I would not be happy playing myself). Choose carefully from where you buy as that is your guarantee (or otherwise) of quality.
6) Most importers brand with their own company name.

[Dan Schultz]

I don't know why everyone is so concerned about the 'clones'. Trash is coming from other parts of The World than just China. I have a euphonium here now for work that says "made in Germany" on the bell. Any fool can see that these are Chinese components. This horn is trash. Not only does the open bugle play flat.... at least the 1st and 3rd valve circuits will have to be cut, too! The fact is... Germany allows products to be marked "made in Germany" as long as at least 40% of the final assembly is done in Germany.

It ain't what it seems out there, folks. You can't even trust what's stamped on the bell! My ongoing advice is to "try before you buy" and don't believe all that you see. You might as well buy a horn that's made in China. At least you know that's probably not a lie!

[Smokeytuba]

Thanks everyone for the input. The reason I ask is that its a short drive to the Schiller dealer and I'd like to know what I am looking at compared to others that I've heard about here on TubeNet before I spend the money. I've played a nickel model that they had (don't recall the model, in Bb though) and it was very smooth and very fun to play, just not the model I wanted. I could care less about where my horn was made/assembled nor could those that I play with. As long as it doesn't take a lot of alternate fingerings/lipping/slide pulling just to get through a song. I planning a purchase this spring and will be consider one of these new clones or a road tested horn. Thanks again. Joel

[bisontuba]

The fact is... Germany allows products to be marked "made in Germany" as long as at least 40% of the final assembly is done in Germany.

I never knew that....wow!!!

Mark

[MartyNeilan]

Thanks everyone for the input. The reason I ask is that its a short drive to the Schiller dealer and I'd like to know what I am looking at compared to others that I've heard about here on TubeNet before I spend the money. I've played a nickel model that they had (don't recall the model, in Bb though) and it was very smooth and very fun to play, just not the model I wanted. I could care less about where my horn was made/assembled nor could those that I play with. As long as it doesn't take a lot of alternate fingerings/lipping/slide pulling just to get through a song. I planning a purchase this spring and will be consider one of these new clones or a road tested horn. Thanks again. Joel

I had a Schiller CC. Very decent tuba, and VERY VERY decent for the price. Not the absolute best tuba I ever owned, but very far from the worst. Given them an honest try and then decide.
The same tubas have many different names stamped on them, there are a few guys on this board importing horns - you can find them in the Sponsors section.

[Gilligan]

I'm playing the Schiller BBb four valve rotary in nickel. It is a great sounding horn. The OEM mouthpiece that came with it makes a great door stop. I use a stainless Sellsmanberger Symphony with #2 Fair Dinkum meduim round rim and the nylon cup extended in place. The Schiller horns are stencils made by the JinBao Company for Jim Labbs Music and seem to be better than most of the other Chineese made instruments. If you can remember the opening cermony of the Chineese Olympics the massive drums were all made by JinBao.

[sloan]

To my mind, there are really only two ways to shop for tubas: by brand, or by personal testing.

Trying to figure out quality based on "where it was made" is a fool's mission. First - you may not really know. Second, there are lots of places that produce both high quality and crap.

In the end, the only real way to tell is by personal testing. Try the exact instrument before you buy.
But, note that you need some qualifications, and experience.

Second best is to buy from someone you know and trust. Someone willing to put their name and reputation on the line. Note that this may involve a premium price - you are getting something of value and should be willing to pay for it.

Third best is to buy an established brand name. Some brands (Miraphone and Yamaha come to mind) are reliably consistent - you know what you are getting without testing the individual instrument. Others (King leaps to mind) CAN produce a quality instrument, but either you or the person you are buying from (see above) need to test (or fix) the individual instrument to be sure.

"Made in Germany"/"Made in China"/"Made in Brazil" are nearly worthless.

AFTER THE FACT (or, when buying very old used instruments), it may become obvious which brands and which manufacturing locations were the winners and which were the losers. But, for new production, I think this information is largely unreliable.

In the middle - note that knowing that one factory provides instruments for several stencil "brands" may well be less than useful. If the stencils mean anything at all (and...perhaps in some cases they don't) they mean standards and quality control. Some stencilled brands have higher standards than others. After awhile, I would not at all be surprised to learn that all the "good" examples are shipped to one stencil and the "second best" examples go to another. Here, I'm thinking of Besson - where legend has it that the stock was cherry picked at the factory (by those able to travel to the factory) and what was left over was shipped to overseas distributors. Same manufacturer, same brand, different product streams.

[Smokeytuba]

Thanks again to all for your advice. Buying a tuba is something new to me, however not that much different than purchasing other passions of mine. I'll play test as much as possible, narrow down the list, and start scanning the market for the best price. My initial interest in the clones is that current production appears better than that of the past. A few importers honestly care about selling quality horns and it would appear that a model that I'm interested in is being marketed by different sellers. I'd like to support those sellers that advertise here, but in the long run, money is money and I've got to look out for #1 because who else will? Again thanks for your help, it has been very beneficial.
Joel

[ShoelessWes]

Dirty little secret: Many of these "chinese tubas" are actually made, on contract, in India. Much like our companies contract out Chinese companies, Chinese companies contract out Indian companies. Sometimes they point blank lie, sometimes they use the words "assembled in China".

[ghmerrill]

Dirty little secret: Many of these "chinese tubas" are actually made, on contract, in India. Much like our companies contract out Chinese companies, Chinese companies contract out Indian companies. Sometimes they point blank lie, sometimes they use the words "assembled in China".

Just curious and not intending to offend, but what's the actual evidence for this? On the face of it, it doesn't make too much sense to me from a business and quality perspective.

[Wyvern]

Dirty little secret: Many of these "chinese tubas" are actually made, on contract, in India. Much like our companies contract out Chinese companies, Chinese companies contract out Indian companies. Sometimes they point blank lie, sometimes they use the words "assembled in China".

Just curious and not intending to offend, but what's the actual evidence for this? On the face of it, it doesn't make too much sense to me from a business and quality perspective.

I think ShoelessWes is just TROLLING!!!



There is enough factories in China and enough cheap labour, that no need to contract out overseas

[bort]

I doubt it for a lot of reasons, but the big one I'm thinking about is geography -- the Himalayas separate China from India, so the only way to get goods from one place to the next is by boat. Costs would have to be MUCH cheaper in India to justify the additional expenses of using freight liners for such a short distance by sea. Maybe there is a good trade route there, but I highly doubt that it's built around the inexpensive tuba industry.

[pgym]

I doubt it for a lot of reasons, but the big one I'm thinking about is geography -- the Himalayas separate China from India, so the only way to get goods from one place to the next is by boat. Costs would have to be MUCH cheaper in India to justify the additional expenses of using freight liners for such a short distance by sea. Maybe there is a good trade route there, but I highly doubt that it's built around the inexpensive tuba industry.

I've heard that the Chinese and Indians have these things called "aeroplanes" that can actually FLY over the Himalayas! And some of them are supposed to be big enough to carry CARGO!

[TubaRay]

I've heard that the Chinese and Indians have these things called "aeroplanes" that can actually FLY over the Himalayas! And some of them are supposed to be big enough to carry CARGO!

No way!!! When did this happen? And they can carry cargo the size of tubas? What will they think of next?

[bort]

Joe beat me to it, but that's exactly what I was going to say. The Indian labor costs would have to be impossibly low to make this work for the Chinese. The Indians would be better off to make/sell stuff themselves.

What I'm waiting for is industrialization of another African country. I don't know what the raw materials/commodities situations are, but it's much closer to Europe and the Americas!

[bort]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't want what I've described above to happen, but more like just waiting to see what happens. That is, when one factory country gets too expensive, along comes another one. So if India, China, and southeast Asia are all not cheap enough, what's next? Perhaps Africa?

[ghmerrill]

I seriously doubt that these things are ever in the air. Air freight is just too expensive in relation to the wholesale cost of this stuff.

I can play ... Hot air balloons?