Tuning the BE982 Sovereign EEb Compensating Tuba

[Gilligan]

Hi,

Just picked up a EEb Soveriegn tuba. I've been asked to switch from BBb to Eb with the Brass Band I'm currently playing with. I've been trying to get it to play in tune with itself. For example. when playing open Bb in the middle of the staff in tune the high Bb is in tune but the open Eb at the bottom of the staff is flat and the open Eb in the staff is sharp. This horn is a 1995 or 96 model and has been well kept with no abuse and a shop servicing in the last nine months.

I'm currently playing this horn with an Original G&W Alan Baer model stainless mouthpiece. All my other mouthpieces make the horn play badly flat on all pitches.

If you are successfully playing this model please let me know what your mouthpiece you are using.

Thanks
Gill

[b.williams]

I had a late 1980's 981. I used a Wick 3L. The intonation was very good, but not prefect. I tried a Bach 24AW, a Bach 7, a Schilke 67, a Wick 1XL, and a Perantucci 50. I liked the Wick 3L the best.

[sousaphone68]

I use a Denis Wicke 1L mostly I also use a Yamaha 66D or a Besson 24 from time to time.
But keep trying before changing mp it took me a month to adjust when I moved to this tuba after playing a new standard eb for 20 years.

[imperialbari]

I own and play a 981 made in 1999. I found that neither DW3L nor DW1L exploited the potentials of this fine tuba, so for years I preferred the PT-50 for its sound and fought the problems with articulations in low dynamics. When I got a Mike FInn 3H for my BBb basses, it turned out being too small for these, but being ideal for the 981. However I now use blokepieces for my F and my BBb’s, so I use the Solo #2 on the 981 to keep rims uniform.

All that said, you won’t like my take on your pitch problem: that it is neither with the tuba nor with whatever mouthpiece you might choose. The problem is that you are playing that Eb tuba like you play your BBb tuba. That is giving you a full sound, but until you adapt your air support and your body, neck, and head resonance cavities you will be flattish in the low & top registers and sharpish in your upper middle register.

This is not an attack on your person, as all players not doing their basics on their new instrument when going from contrabass to bass tuba will suffer from the same problems.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Legend coming to me fits with my own experiences from modifying backbores:

The longer the cylindrical portion of the throat, the more definitive slotting, good or bad, with less chances for the embouchure and air management to change the pitch.

I prefer less slotting over wrong slotting, but the greater flexibility has a price: you have to consciously take control of the pitch all the time.

Klaus

[MartyNeilan]

Separate from mouthpieces, I have heard that extending the third valve compensating loop can be a good thing for low register intonation. I may be getting a clone of one of these, and will consider having that extension made once I have spent a little time with it.

[Wyvern]

The 24AW is perfect match for the 981. I played with this combination for 10 years.

I would suspect the mouthpiece you are using is too large for the tuba. 981 tuning is usually pretty good.

[finnbogi]

I also find the Besson 981 somewhat mouthpiece sensitive. When I got mine about a decade ago, I tried a few different mouthpieces including PT-65 and -30, Bach 18 and 24AW, Wick 2L and 3L, and Dillon S3. Some of the mouthpieces really messed up the partials (knocked them out of line, to use bloke's metaphore), but the intonation was impeccable using either the 24AW or the Wick 3L (whether they fit the horn or my mouth, I can't say). In the end, I preferred the feel and sound of the 3L and have used it ever since.

[modelerdc]

I believe that this is a problem that will likely self correct as you continue to practice the horn. I don't find these British E flats to be all that mouthpiece sensitive, but if may be helpful if the total cup volume is not on the very large size. i.e. a 24AW (or 3L) has deep cup but not a large rim, some other mouthpiece, i.e. Conn 7B little more rim a little less cup. Was it Bill Bell who said that the average BB flat mpc is too large, and the average E flat mpc is too small. Just hang in there and once you are used to it, the Besson E flat is a good instrument.

[humphrey]

I have to give a shout out to Bloke's "imperial" mouthpiece here. I've been playing it for about 9 months now & have had nothing but praise for the sound it is helping me produce.

I used a 24AW for years with no problems whilst in the military & went back to that piece when I took up the tuba again after an 18 year lay off.

I started playing around with different sized pieces based on what I've read on this board & found I could get better articulation with a sharper rim, so switched to helleburg/bach 18 for a while & found I liked the breadth of sound & solidity of articulation these gave me but I had to work harder at the pitching. I wanted to try a stainless steel mp but my EEb has the old smaller bore reciever.

When I heard Bloke was producing a mp specifically for these instruments I got my chance & have found MY mouthpiece now. I was complimented on the sound after the first rehearsal I used it in by two players from different sections of the band. It took a while for me to stop the habit of fighting for the pitch & just relax with it, but now I have a piece that lets me play in tune, with ease & with the broad sound I have in my head.

I have been very lucky with my tuba purchases over the years & it took a while for me to get my head around buying a mouthpiece that cost around 1/3 the price I paid for the instrument! But it has proven a wise investment as it makes the tuba sound twice as good!

Hope that doesn't confuse things too much!

Russ

[iiipopes]

Was it Bill Bell who said that the average BB flat mpc is too large, and the average E flat mpc is too small.

When he said that the average Eb mouthpiece was about the size of a Bach 32.

[modelerdc]

Actually I made a mistake in the writing of what I remembered. I should have said that Bell said that the average BB flat mouthpiece was too small and the average E flat mpc was too large. At least that's how I remember it. The relevant point here being that the Besson E flats are not IMHO overly mpc sensitive with mpcs of modest sizes, verly large and deep mouthpieces could be another matter. Some mouthpieces I've found that work well on it in addition to the 24AW are the Schilke Helleberg, Conn Helleberg 7B, Conn 2, and the much ignored Bach 24W. As far as the orginal question of intonation on the E flat, I can take many months of practice to really hear pitches when learning to play pitches on an instrument in a different pitch. When trumpet players first start to play the C trumpet you hear grips about how bad in tune they are, after 6 months or a year the grips go away-their b flats weren't perfectly in tune but they knew how to adjust, and after a while they learn the same on the new instrument. The same process will follow for the E flat tuba.

[euphomate]

I have been playing a BE981 EEb for many years in a number of settings and have tried many mouthpieces, inc a lot of those already mentioned. I keep coming back to a Wick 3L. For me it produces the warmest, darkest tone of all those tried, and that is the sound I strive for on the EEb. Steven Wick (son of Denis) used to have an online chart with more specific and insightful comments on the various aspects of Wick mouthpieces than those published on the official company literature. It seems to have disappeared since the Conn Selmer takeover of Wick. Steven used to describe the 3L as "a mouthpiece that converts the EEb to a genuine orchestral tuba" (or words to that effect). A 24AW or the Yamaha 66D4 also work for me, but I prefer the rim shape and feel of the 3L.

[opus37]

Consider trying the Giddings and Webster Bora or Matanuska. They have a slightly smaller bore that the Denis Wick 3L and the cup diameter is a slightly larger. I think the Imperial is also good (with the 2A rim). I would like that better if there was a slightly smaller rim available. I find that 32 mm or ever so slightly smaller works best for me. And yes, you will have to learn your horn and lip adjust a note or two.

[Gilligan]

Hey All,

Thanks for all the responses. I've been talking with Bloke and have an Imperial bottom on the way. I've been playing a Sellsmenberger Symphony with my BBb for about six months and really like its sound and the feel of the #2 Fair Dinkum rim.

The compensating Eb is definitely a different beast than a straight BBb. I never realized how much my fingering and positioning on a horn influenced how I hear the pitch to tune it. I have about ten hours of play time on the Eb now and am realizing that the comment about having to position your air cavities differently for the Eb to be very true. Also, getting used to having the forth on the left hand has been bending my brain a little.

I'll let you know how the new mouthpiece works when it arrives.

Thanks Again!