4RV trombone

[imperialbari]

No endorsement, but this kind of instrument sometimes is of interest for low brass players without slide skills:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0721176359

[Dan Schultz]

Darn! Already have to many horns. This might make a great start on a cimbasso!

[Donn]

I think the seller errs in calling it a bass valve trombone.

Cerveny's bass valve trombone - in F, .560 in. bore:


I would also take mild issue with `brass players without slide skills.' If that were the sole merit of the instrument, I doubt even Cerveny would still be making them.

[imperialbari]

I will not split hair over terms. I just know that in some of my ensemble teaching in smaller schools such instrument would have been a good doubling for a euph player. I would like it myself, but I have 4 valve trombones and a contrabass trumpet already.

Klaus

[Donn]

If that were the sole merit of the instrument, I doubt even Cerveny would still be making them.

(To me,) those .560" bore things are too stuffy (' have owned one).
(To me,) those with the bore size of a large sousaphone (c. 18.5mm) are too open (have tried to play one).
I suspect (??) that something around 17 - 17.5mm bore is "just right" for these.

Could be. Coincidentally, Cerveny's 18.2mm F cimbasso has the same bore as their F helicon.

While my remark above appears to make a case that the bass valve trombone is useful for something, honestly I'm not sure what it is. If I had to come up with an idea for a viable but missing bass trombone, I'd say an F double slide, in a bass bore - probably less than .600 in.

[pjv]

This link is about a bass tbn in Bb, not in F. The bore size isn't mentioned.

A Bb bass tbn with a .560 bore is reasonable. My gut feeling says for one with valves it'd help if it were larger.

Personally I think an F bass tbn (or call it an F contra-bass or a cimbasso) needs a larger bore so as to get an open enough sound to play comfortably.

-Pat

[Bob Kolada]

(To me,) those .560" bore things are too stuffy (' have owned one).
(To me,) those with the bore size of a large sousaphone (c. 18.5mm) are too open (have tried to play one).
I suspect (??) that something around 17 - 17.5mm bore is "just right" for these.

Could be. Coincidentally, Cerveny's 18.2mm F cimbasso has the same bore as their F helicon.
While my remark above appears to make a case that the bass valve trombone is useful for something, honestly I'm not sure what it is. If I had to come up with an idea for a viable but missing bass trombone, I'd say an F double slide, in a bass bore - probably less than .600 in.

Bloke, rather than that bass superbone you mention occasionally, I bet you could put together a rather nice upright valved Bb bass trombone. 5 valves, 4+2 (with a usable main slide for exposed in the staff playing when your left hand would be off the 2 valves anyway?), whatever. Maybe even a recording bell?

Detailed rant ahead-

I had one of those F contrabass trumpets a while back (fun and I want another one!). It had a very small valve bore. I never measured it but it reminded me of some sort of alto/tenor marching instrument. Here is the exact horn-
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/cbtp.html
I purged a bunch of instruments and sold it and my Chinese rotary bass trumpet to some guy in Boston, I think. Anyway, even with that small bore it played just fine on low C/B. Read on for the point.

As for the use of a valved bass trombone (NOT a cimbasso), I love playing slide bass trombone but have never been the fastest slide guy and have some left elbow issues from playing it. I wanted a similar sound in a valve format on the cheap so I could not only play faster stuff more naturally but also get that low bass/light contra sound.

I've played a Kanstul contrabone (oddly enough, backheavy enough to make it easier to hold up), a Chinese "Thein" contrabone, and a one-off F/Bb/D made out of a bass slide, 2 .562 valves, and a G baritone bell section. The Kansul was a bit in the middle for me- neither light nor heavy enough for me. The Chinese horn was just wanted I sound wise. Clear sound, great low range, lean and aggressive,... I still might get one one day. The one-off was further proof (after the contratrumpet) that what I had been considering could work.


So I started talking to a guy who builds horns (builder of the one-off), I picked up a .562 front valve section from an American baritone for cheap, and we figured out a plan. The horn is going to be about the same height as one of those baritones as I didn't want a travel tuba nor a physically very large instrument. It will have a 10" bell from a Getzen G baritone and a lot of .562 tubing. A 3 valve Eb will cover the vast majority of the regular bass trombone range and all the classic low bass trombone parts (G, F, and valved F horns). It's really not meant to be a cimbasso though we have discussed possibly adding a 4th valve later on. Right now it's only meant to be a valved BASS trombone for some fun, quintet, jazz stuff, and whatever orchestral stuff I can sneak it into. The plan is to start off with my shallow contrabone mp but also try my jazz bass mp and my deep contra mp.

The builder is making the 3rd slide long enough to pull for a low Ab with all 3 valves and there will also be a long main slide on top for fine tuning notes. That may get it down to a low G but that would surely need to be prepped well in advance of playing it.
I should have it in a few weeks or so. Can't wait!



Anyway, my experiences with valve sizes and cylindrical low F instruments-
-very small bore F contra trumpet- perfectly fine, not hyper, low C and B
-MW travel tuba- the first one I played I hated, the second I rather like (still not going to buy one!!! ), nice clear sound good low range til at least an A or so
-.547 F bass with a .594 C valve- nice low C with or without the valve, almost nothing below that
-Chinese contrabone, .562 slide, ? valves- HOT low Bb valve! nice clear sound overall
-one off F/Bb/D contra with .562 valve and slides- not the hottest low register but certainly usable
-Kanstul F/C/Db contra, .562/94 (!!) slide, .620 and .650 valves- a little broad overall for me, good enough around D-Bb, not so hot below there; a better player than me said it did play better there than the Haags
-MW F cimbasso- sounded almost exactly like a -bass- trombone from Cish to low Cish, useless above that, don't remember below that

To give a similar feel to a slide horn, it seems the valved version is best at about one size larger. My horn is meant to be a bass and not a contrabass so it should still work.

If I had to come up with an idea for a viable but missing bass trombone, I'd say an F double slide, in a bass bore - probably less than .600 in.

Regarding low trombone sound and ergonomics, if I were lucky enough to be doing consistent brass band bass trombone work ( ) I'd get an indy bass trombone and get the bell lengthened to G. That would give a proportional G bass sound (for brass band and classical low bass orchestral stuff) to the large tenors and BAT's people play nowadays, would be a smashing heavy bass/light contra for big and low symphonic blowouts, and be back heavy enough to make it doable for regular playing. If my Getzen 1062 had been a 1052, I'd have had this done long ago.

[Donn]

This link is about a bass tbn in Bb, not in F. The bore size isn't mentioned.

A Bb bass tbn with a .560 bore is reasonable. My gut feeling says for one with valves it'd help if it were larger.

I'm saying that the auction is wrong, it really is not a bass trombone, and further that there is really no such thing as a Bb bass valve trombone. That's my theory anyway. Maybe he's looking at the 4 valves, I don't know.

The reason we drifted on to talking about F valve bass trombones is because that's how they make them - bass valve trombones as made by Cerveny, Miraphone if they're still making them, etc., are F.

[pjv]

Interesting. A modern bass trb is a beefed up tenor; bigger bore, bell & mpc. We all know why this happened historically and it's the sound we're used to hearing as a bass bone. An F bone has more weight and overtones in its sound.

Theoretically, if a valve trb were also beefed up one would perceive its sound as a bass bone type of instrument.

That being said, the chance that this is such a horn seems rather slim and its probably a mistake on the part of the seller.

-Pat