1917 Conn Sousaphone ID

[DaTubaKid]

Hello Tubenet folk,

The shop I work at, Fix This! Musical Instrument Repair, recently came upon a very old Conn Sousaphone and we need some help identifying it. I have looked through a number of articles online, including the Conn Loyalist website and have run into the metaphorical brick wall to obtaining a definitive model number for this horn. I also tried calling Conn to see if they could help, however they were only able to confirm the year the horn was made. Here is what I know:

- Serial number is in the 150XXX, which dates the horn to 1917
- The body of the horn seems to match the layout and design of a Conn 40K (4 valves)
- The bell is 22.5" in diameter
- The upper loop of the first valve slide has been customized so that you can adjust pitch while you play (as pictured)

Here are some pictures of the horn and bell:

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The horn came with two bells, one silver, one lacquer. The lacquer bell is 24", but the collar is just a little bit too small for the bell receiver, so it is clearly not original to the horn.

The silver bell fits nicely, but is smaller than I would expect for a 40K, which I understand from reading online that typically comes with either a 24" or 26" bell. This is why I am having trouble putting a model to this horn. Is it a 40K with a replacement 22.5" bell (possibly an Eb bell?), or did the 40K's made in 1917 come with a smaller bell than the more recent models?

Any information or leads regarding this instrument would be greatly appreciated!

[tubaguy9]

It's possible that there isn't a model name or number for it. I have an old Conn trombone that I believe was made in 1910, and when doing research, found that there was a year they started doing the names and model numbers for horns. I don't remember what the year was.
Maybe someone else can get that info?

[Gilligan]

I think the lettering system was developed by Mr Greenleaf sometime after 1916 when he took contol of Conn after Mr. Conn left.

[windshieldbug]

When they embossed the horns with actual model numbers, it was applied to different types/models at different times, so I would presume that a single date would be impossible to pin down.

[eupher61]

Send an email, with the pics--or at least the link--to Steve Dillon at dillonmusic.com

He's about the closest thing to a Conn expert you will find anywhere.

[DaTubaKid]

The lacquered bell is a recording bell, not a sousaphone bell.
Are you sure this isn't a converted raincatcher?

Oops, now that you mention it, it does make a lot more sense.

The lacquer bell is from a later 2xJ or 3xJ recording tuba - you can tell by the 45 degree angle of the small end in relation to the bell flare.

Thanks for helping narrow that down a bit. I was trying to see if I could put a specific model number to the bell diameter, but wasn't finding any records of it.

The upper loop of the first slide is definitely a new thing. If it was a Conn original it would have the small rings on each of the tube ends like all the others (my 46K has these).

Agreed, I came to the same conclusion when I first noticed it. Tangent question out of curiosity: Did your 46K come stock with the moveable slide, or are any instances of this the result of custom work? In other words, did Conn make any of these sousaphones with the moveable slide in the factory?

The last ferrule before the collar isn't like the others, although it is very similar to the female tenon of the collar - very smooth. The guard cap on the bottom of the collar looks more like those found on raincatchers or on the back of the bell (where it would be on a raincatcher). The engraving looks like, I'm guessing on this one, as though it should have come from an upright bell, as the engraving comes down a little further to the ring than I've seen on other engravings.

My guess is that it is a converted 36K or 37K raincatcher. Possibly the owner had it, then had it converted to a bell-front during the war or just before it to keep up with the times - raincatchers had fallen out of fashion, with the recording bell on the sousaphone being the primary marching instrument. In which case, it was probably done at the Conn factory since the plating looks spectacular for a 90+ year old sousaphone.

Good point, I didn't notice the collar ferrule difference at first. The photos I have been able to find online seem to be fairly consistent in the style of the collar throughout the horn, so it is a little odd that this one is different.

The last brace location is bothering me a bit though. On sousaphones, the brace is where it is located on the horn in question, but on a raincatcher, the brace has to be a bit earlier in the tubing because it needs to be before the earlier-placed collar for the detachable bell. But in the horn in question, there doesn't seem to be any space before where the original collar would have been to have put such brace.

Another slight difference I was just noticing: behind the mouthpipe receiver, you can see a nested pair of tubes. The top tube is the post-tuning slide section, but nested within that seems to be a section of the fourth valve tube. This seems to be a little different from what I have been able to find, where that tube is tucked completely behind the post-tuning slide section.

Just out of curiosity, what's the diameter of the bell collar?

I won't be in the shop again until Monday, so I will take measurements of the bell collar when I am in and post online then.

[DaTubaKid]

Thanks to everyone for all of your input. We've had the chance to talk to many people over the last week regarding this horn and it has been very informational. After much review, we are fairly confident that this horn pre-dates the standardization of model numbers at Conn, although it most closely resembles the Grand 40K. Although the 22.5" bell is something particularly unique about this horn, we do not believe that it is the result of custom work, but rather a predecessor to the standard 24" and 26" bells more commonly found on the 40K. The moveable upper 1st slide is definitely the result of custom work, although due to non-uniform slide rings, we do not believe that it was done at the Conn factory.

Thanks again!