Perceived vs recorded intonation

[Lingon]

When practicing I now and then record and listen. One detail that have begun to interest me is that, especially with the tuba, the intonation, or what I hear, when I play and listen live and what I hear from the recording seems to differ. Lets say I play a phrase live, work with it until I hear or at least think it is nice sound and intonation. Then if I listen back at the recording sometimes the intonation seems to be off, not at the whole thing but only on certain notes. And if I then correct the notes that seems to be off so I hear the sound correct on the recording they may feel totally out of tune when I play live.

The same thing happens sometime in the orchestra too when we play on the stage live and when I hear the recorded sessions. We think we hear good sound and intonation live but at the recording it is not so good and vice versa.

Is this too an acoustic phenomenon and has something to do with that we as players always hear our sound from behind the bell and must try to trust mostly indirect sound from our instruments?

Any thoughts?

[joh_tuba]

An uneven sound can often create the impression of intonation problems where none(or little) exist.

Not implying that is your issue.. I have no idea what you are experiencing.. I just know that non-tubists often hear changes in sound as problems in intonation.

[Henry Gertcher]

I know that microphone placement will impact the recorded sound. For example if the microphone is too close or on top of the bell of a tuba than you will miss a lot of the overtones in the sound and the recording will sound thin. Pull the mic back about a foot and you will be amazed at the sound difference.

I have also noticed that a tuba will sound different if you are standing next to it versus a few feet away. I would bet that this is causing the "issues" with intonation.

One way to test this theory would be to set up two identical microphones, one approximately next to your head and one a foot or more from the tuba. Set both to record, play some music, and than listen to the recorded music. I would caution against playing the same piece twice and using one mic as their could be inconsistencies between each time you play the music. If you can test this I would love to know the result.

As to how to "fix" this I don't really have any good ideas. My only suggestion would be to first determine the exact nature of the phenomenon and than move from there.

Henry Gertcher

[Lingon]

...Even when I'm certain (electronically verified) that I played most everything quite well-enough "in tune", the D#'s always sound "funny" to me on the playbacks...

That's a good example, but what about if it sounds "funny" when you play it and correct on the playback?!

...An uneven sound can often create the impression of intonation problems where none(or little) exist...

Food for thought.

...I know that microphone placement will impact the recorded sound...

Yes I am aware of that but as far as I know that usually impacts the timbre and not so much the intonation, or single tones, and it may also have some influence for uneven sound as joh-tuba wrote.

...I have also noticed that a tuba will sound different if you are standing next to it versus a few feet away. I would bet that this is causing the "issues" with intonation...

Now there may be something.

...One way to test this theory would be to set up two identical microphones...

Good idea. When I have a chance I would test this, and let you know the result.

...As to how to "fix" this I don't really have any good ideas. My only suggestion would be to first determine the exact nature of the phenomenon and than move from there...

Yes. However, to reprogram the ear in such a way that you have to play out of tune to get it on the tape in tune seems to be a bit problematic. I did a couple of smaller tests, without mic, and moved around in my practice room. The acoustics seems to be involved in this too because there are, subtle, changes both in pitch and timbre, not so much about individual tones as the whole sound though.

[swillafew]

Record with a condenser microphone in a big room. Put the microphone at the distance of a listener in that room. You will hear what others hear when you do so. On the other hand, your listeners might be crowding your position on the stage and attempting to enter your bell!

[sousaphone68]

Don't know if this helps I have a choice of instruments to play at home all of them sound better recorded than in my head at home and all sound better live in the band hall than at home either recorded or live

[Doug Elliott]

I do occasional studio recording here in the DC area... not much lately but there used to be some.

I had the experience once of recording with a section of 4 trombones, feeling like we were all in tune, and being horrified during playback that my part was noticeably flat. I have been through periods in my career when I was flat like that, and other times when I was sharp. In both extremes, I could hear it on playback but while playing it sounded correct.

Add to that situation the fact that I have perfect pitch... I believe that the ear perceives pitch differently coming from internally than it does in normal hearing. And each ear can be different. I think people who are "tone deaf," or can't match a pitch with their voice, are actually perceiving different pitches in each ear.

Also, if you get used to a single note (or more) being out of tune, it then sounds right to you, so the actual correct pitch sounds wrong. For example, if a kid grows up playing an out of tune piano, that bad tuning is imprinted on the kid's brain. If you're used to playing a horn with some notes that are flat or sharp, you get used to it and don't know how to correct for it because it sounds right.

For that situation, "listening" doesn't help because you're not hearing yourself the same way everybody else is. The way I "retrained" my pitch perception was to use a tuner to force my ears to adjust to "correct" pitches, at least in equal temperment. I still like to hear higher notes to be a little sharper than "correct," but pianos are tuned that way too because it sounds better to most people.

[glangfur]

It's possible that there's something going on physiologically inside your head.

A couple of months ago I had a sudden onset of tinnitus. Ironically, I first noticed the sound while attending a tuba recital... Anyway, the high pitch I perceive in my left ear is one thing, but other symptoms have come and gone as well, including distortion of outside sounds and some days when the bone conduction pitch in my head doesn't match the pitch coming out of my instrument. And it's not consistent...in other words, some pitches would sound nearly a half step flat to me, while others would be relatively accurate. Fortunately this symptom hasn't been constant.

Obviously, this is maddening, and I haven't been able to find a doctor who can really explain it or help. What has helped is a combination of craniosacral therapy (using specialized massage techniques to relieve tension in the head and neck and promote the healthy movement of fluids in and out of the sinuses) and acupuncture.

The theory is that this was caused by a virus and exacerbated by dental work (2 days before the ringing started), but in a couple of weeks I will have an MRI to rule out other causes.

[windshieldbug]

Overtones, distance from source, mic placement/audio spectrum, situational intonation.

Add to that your own internal reverberation, and you can NEVER exactly reproduce a performance.

[Lingon]

Thanks all, many interesting things to think of and check up. Clearly this is is complex stuff...

One question that might be slightly off topic is, is it possible to learn to hear correct? I.e. is it possible to go from a state when someone plays slightly or mostly out of tune to a state when said person hear and automagically correct the tuning to work together with other players and have it work perfect or almost perfect? Sorry for my bad English, but is it understandable?

[pjv]

We often forget that the room/hall we play in is also part of our sound. It can be very useful during practice to actively focus our ears to how our sound is elders in the room; in the corner, behind the chair, on the ceiling, etc.

It sounds wacko, but its an exercise in focusing your ears to listen to your sound further away instead of directly as it leaves the bell. I'm not saying this will cure intonation issues, but it should help.

Also, I often don't have the privilege to play in places that have been kept at a constant temperature. I REALLY notice differences in tuning even when the horn's cooled down just a bit.

-Pat