University of Phoenix...

[MartyNeilan]

I believe these three esteemed gentlemen are on the faculty:

[PMeuph]

Wouldn't you just be a shoe-in for the prior learning assessment recognition. Heck, your upcoming recital could count as your grad recital, and all your post on facebook could be your dissertation. Surely wouldn't be worst than somethings out there....

[ShoelessWes]

[windshieldbug]

Phoenix doesn't offer a Tuba degree, but they do offer a Doctorate in Music Performance...

(all you have to do is practice turning on the radio, they can check if your wrist technique is good through your PC camera... )

[sloan]

Phoenix doesn't offer a Tuba degree, but they do offer a Doctorate in Music Performance...

(all you have to do is practice turning on the radio, they can check if your wrist technique is good through your PC camera... )

No, no, no...the radio is only used in the History of Music program. The newly updated DMP degree now
requires that everyone listen to their music online. Actual performances follow the PLOrk model.

[PMeuph]

.......
I usually don't go there, but I will today. One of the things I find oddly peculiar about the American educational system is the idea of for-profit schools.... Often these schools have different accreditation and might have more lax standards. On the other hand, in Canada, the term University can not be used by an institution unless a provincial accreditation is held by the school. Accreditation has to come through the government or else it is not valid.

Just my $0.02.

[JB]

.......
I usually don't go there, but I will today. One of the things I find oddly peculiar about the American educational system is the idea of for-profit schools.... Often these schools have different accreditation and might have more lax standards. On the other hand, in Canada, the term University can not be used by an institution unless a provincial accreditation is held by the school. Accreditation has to come through the government or else it is not valid.

Just my $0.02.

...I usually don’t go there either...and wouldn't.

You are making an apples & oranges comparison; ...

...There are also “lax standards” (despite gov’t accreditation) in Cdn (and other country’s) universities; as well as some with very high standards.

Just because it is “gov’t approved” (much like “band director approved” on E-Bay) doesn’t necessarily make it “great.” Nor even “good.”

In the US, there is also this: http://nasm.arts-accredit.org/index.jsp?page=About+NASM


Just my $0.02 USD (alongside your $0.02 CDN).

[PMeuph]

You are making an apples & oranges comparison; ...

Just because it is “gov’t approved” (much like “band director approved” on E-Bay) doesn’t necessarily make it “great.” Nor even “good.”

In the US, there is also this: http://nasm.arts-accredit.org/index.jsp?page=About+NASM

Now that I re-read my post, I see your issues...

I still don't see much of an apples & oranges in comparing the two educational systems as a lot of American trained PhDs work in Canadian universities and a fair amount of Americans to study in Canada. (Mcgill does have a student population that is about 10% American after all...)

The idea was not that "Government approved" is better... It is that it is more uniform and consistent(because it comes from one body).... I have no issue with accreditation coming from one or several bodies in collaboration, but I find the issue of multiple different accreditation bodies to be puzzling (How you can have, national, or regional, or private, or religious accreditation and state that they are the "same" is something that I don't see the point of, having fewer bodies (whether private or gov't) that set the same stands seems the way to go) There is regional accreditation, so why should there be other accreditation? Shouldn't these other for profit universities be called something else?

Also, the idea of a for-profit institute seems puzzling to me (I know there is one in Canada) it seems counterproductive to the statements of purposes of most universities....

I agree with what Tennessee as put in place....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_a ... reditation" target="_blank

[Art Hovey]

So Canada is not part of (north) America?
I didn't know that!

[PMeuph]

So Canada is not part of (north) America?
I didn't know that!

Clever....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans" target="_blank

Do you prefer the adjective United Statesian?

[JB]

“Now that I re-read my post, I see your issues...”

Thank you for taking the time and effort to re-read; appreciated.

“I still don't see much of an apples & oranges in comparing the two educational systems as a lot of American trained PhDs work in Canadian universities and a fair amount of Americans to study in Canada.”

Well, accreditation does not equate with “a lot of American trained PhDs work in Canadian universities and a fair amount of Americans to study in Canada.” Apples and Pine Trees, not even as close as oranges. (Or perhaps I should have said Maple Trees.) The international (or simply Canadian student population) at a US school also does not equate with accreditation.

“...not that Government approved" is better... It is that it is more uniform and consistent”

Be careful of what you cite. Perhaps ensure your facts are backing you up: are you talking federal or provincial government? Provincial involvement (by definition) yields involvement of more than one body. (That is, if my Cdn civics understanding is correct – no one province rules the rest, correct? There is no such ‘dominion.’) Look deeper into the provincial funding formulas and what they “have a say in” – and how that relates to provincially funded (in part) universities and their “say” in standards and accreditation. If nothing else, look at provincial/university relationships regarding undergraduate education degrees and provincial teaching licenses.

“How you can have, national, or regional, or private, or religious accreditation and state that they are the "same" is something that I don't see the point of.”

Look at the histories of a variety of well-established Cdn universities, and you will see exactly what you describe. Historically, (and geographically) look to the East Coast and to Quebec for examples.

“...state that they are the "same" is something that I don't see the point of...”

I gather such. But then again, none of them checked with either of us to make sure we were on board, did they?


Interesting basis for a much larger discussion – wish I had the time to do so with you.

Maybe the University of Phoenix has an internationally accredited degree program (or 'programme' for you, eh?) we can both enroll in and work our respective discussion into graduate papers.

Best.../...Salut

[JB]

So Canada is not part of (north) America?
I didn't know that!

Clever....

Perhaps Mr Hovey, while being a fine tubist and superb human being, enjoyed one of the schools in the American educational system (perhaps even a ‘for-profit school’) that had a different accreditation and more lax standards (unlike those in Canada)...

[Rick Denney]

.......
I usually don't go there, but I will today. One of the things I find oddly peculiar about the American educational system is the idea of for-profit schools.... Often these schools have different accreditation and might have more lax standards. On the other hand, in Canada, the term University can not be used by an institution unless a provincial accreditation is held by the school. Accreditation has to come through the government or else it is not valid.

Instead of protecting the word "university", we protect learned professions by requiring students to have degrees from proper accreditation organizations, which are most assuredly not run by the government. For engineers, it's the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology. I've known professors who have sweated their way through ABET audits--that accreditation is not trivial. But if education is required to get an engineering license (which it is in most states, and even in those without the requirement almost never license someone without it), that degree must be from an ABET-accredited school.

ABET does not care if the schools uses the word "university" or whether the school is government-funded, non-profit private, or for-profit.

If organizations like ABET were government agencies, accreditation standards would be subject to all manner of political pressures that would undermine their effectiveness. This is true in Canada, too, unless Canadians have managed to escape the human condition (they haven't).

People who buy worthless degrees from places that sell them without providing the education are either 1.) seeking jobs that don't really require an education but that do require a piece of paper (which is a separate issue from whether living well is enhanced by having an education) or 2.) they will have trouble getting licensed to practice.

Rick "noting many jobs that did not used to require a degree now do" Denney

[PMeuph]

.......
I usually don't go there, but I will today. One of the things I find oddly peculiar about the American educational system is the idea of for-profit schools.... Often these schools have different accreditation and might have more lax standards. On the other hand, in Canada, the term University can not be used by an institution unless a provincial accreditation is held by the school. Accreditation has to come through the government or else it is not valid.

Instead of protecting the word "university", we protect learned professions by requiring students to have degrees from proper accreditation organizations, which are most assuredly not run by the government. For engineers, it's the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology. I've known professors who have sweated their way through ABET audits--that accreditation is not trivial. But if education is required to get an engineering license (which it is in most states, and even in those without the requirement almost never license someone without it), that degree must be from an ABET-accredited school.

Engineering is your specialty, and I am glad you bring your expertise. Engineers here also need to study at accredited universities and the programs are reviewed.
Indeed, there is also a Mutual Recgonition Agreement with the ABET and the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers.

http://engineerscanada.ca/e/files/abet_eng.pdf" target="_blank

_____
A factoid you might find interesting... Due to shortages of engineers in the (Canadian) Prairies (Saskatchewan and Alberta, mostly) due to heavy mining these days, certain firms are recruiting in Texas and other southern states were there are plenty of trained engineers, but not as many jobs.

If organizations like ABET were government agencies, accreditation standards would be subject to all manner of political pressures that would undermine their effectiveness. This is true in Canada, too, unless Canadians have managed to escape the human condition (they haven't).

Agreed, and we also have accrediting bodies in Canada, that are not government agencies.

This is as close of a list as I can find without pulling up many different groups....(some of these are not as important as others)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:P ... _in_Canada" target="_blank

___
Lastly, Tennessee does limit the use of the word "University."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_a ... reditation" target="_blank

[MartyNeilan]

So... is the consensus that the UOP (an accredited school) produces worthless degrees in all majors, devoid of work on the students part? Who can attest to this? Aside from music and other inherently hands-on fields, how do online schools fail compared to brick-and-mortar schools for working adults?

My dayjob work schedule will not allow me to get a Master's of Music Education from any of the schools in my area. I looked at one of the only online offerings for that degree, which comes from the respected Boston University. It consisted entirely of writing papers. While BU might look impressive on a resume, I wonder how much that would actually help in the real world when walking into a middle school classroom filled with 60 noisemakers.

[ginnboonmiller]

So... is the consensus that the UOP (an accredited school) produces worthless degrees in all majors, devoid of work on the students part? Who can attest to this? Aside from music and other inherently hands-on fields, how do online schools fail compared to brick-and-mortar schools for working adults?

Pretty much, yes. And lawsuits abound right now to attest to it. The usual argument against Phoenix and other for-profit sector colleges (it's a very new thing that these have been allowed and unregulated, so people in the DoE and various educational groups are watching closely), is that they very frequently misrepresent their ability to prepare students for work, the retention rates at these schools are horrible, with most students dropping out after one semester or year, the job placement rates just as bad. In academe, Phoenix and other for-profit schools are considered some of the worst value-for-dollar ways to get an education.

There are other issues with them as well, and a lot of them are financial. Some suits are indicating that they misrepresent the availability of Financial Aid, especially to veterans. It's a pretty ugly scene right now.

[ginnboonmiller]

yes...

I would certainly agree that...

- no one can really learn anything unless a licensed deliverer of learning is on hand.
- filed and/or won lawsuits always prove truth.

Who is the tuba instructor at the University of Phoenix?

Wow. You are such a careful and accurate reader that you found the points that I wasn't even making, and showed how I was asserting the opinion that I don't even have!

The question was whether general consensus is that Phoenix University is a suck school. I said, why yes. Yes, that's general consensus.

Anything else you got from my post is nothing but the confused ramblings of an underused mind.

Plus, I'm better looking than you.

[PMeuph]

yes...

I would certainly agree that...

- no one can really learn anything unless a licensed deliverer of learning is on hand.
- filed and/or won lawsuits always prove truth.

Who is the tuba instructor at the University of Phoenix?

To me the issue is not that someone can't learn anything without accreditation... Accreditation in certain fields doesn't have the same meaning as others.

I wouldn't mind taking my horns to Techs that aren't part of Napbirt, but I probably wouldn't go see a Doctor that isn't licensed... You can have your pick.

My point is not to compare universities an hospitals, but just to demonstrate that I think there is a dividing point where accreditation, licenses, and standards matter. I am sure we all have the same concern. For some it just happens to be further away than others....

Bloke, I though you were the Tuba Professor at UoP...

[ginnboonmiller]

So if you bust your tail harder online at UOp than you would in a classroom, you have wasted your money? Will all degrees from UOP become invalid? If UOP is accredited, what does that say about the accreditation process? What recourse will former students have? What about online degrees from brick-and-mortar? And I'm not talking about music degrees? What is the dropout rate for government (state) schools? What is the problem with the idea for-profit schools?

(I'm a University Registrar for a living, for what this is worth.)

I appreciate the skeptic approach, and you're asking good questions. Statistically, though, the answers to all of your questions look pretty grim in terms of Phoenix or the other new for-profit colleges. I'll see if I can dig up some articles to back me up (if I feel like it later), but it's pretty googlable stuff. In terms of all of this, a good student is much better off doing a little research before hand, finding a better option, and going for it. That includes online programs at older universities, community colleges, and pretty much anything else, because statistically they're ALL better bets. If you're that good a student, you should be doing serious work towards your education from the get-go, and that includes finding the best school you can manage. Or training on the job, or talking to your buddies - because it's increasingly clear that the new, unregulated, for-profit schools like Phoenix tend towards being overpriced scams. And I haven't really seen any reports of good ones that are bucking that trend. I'd welcome them. Got one?

[hup_d_dup]

What is the problem with the idea for-profit schools?

It isn't the idea, it's the implementation. Many of these schools have figured out how to channel government funds and bank loans through students to themselves, while producing a very low graduation rate, and poor job prospects for those who do manage to graduate. News stories about these outfits pop up with disturbing regularity. And it isn't just sensationalized new stories. You can see at Wikipedia that the University of Phoenix has been successfully sued a surprising number of times, by students, employees, the Dept. of Education, and the Dept. of Labor.

The tens of millions of dollars paid by the university to settle lawsuits actually has to be paid indirectly by the by students or the funds made available to them. This is in addition to the profit that the university must pay its investors. Not a very encouraging record for a prospective student.

Hup