Does the gap matter?

[opus37]

In a recent master class, Alan Baer made the point that the gap of a mouthpiece (gap= the distance from the end of the mouthpiece shank and the beginning of the lead pipe when the mouthpiece is in the receiver) affects the intonation of the tuba. Different mouthpieces, all called American size, have different shank end diameters which affects the taper and how far they insert in the horn. He said a BBb gap should be 0.5" a C 0.375" and Eb of F 0.25". Much different than that and the mouthpiece and horn don't work well together. That's some of the reason why woofiness or other tone problems show up. Anyone have a comment on this?

[opus37]

He did not specify uniqueness for piston or rotor horns and implied that did not make a difference. I have measured my gap with several different mouthpieces and found I like the sound better when the gap is about 0.2" on my Eb. So I have one piece of evidence that suggests he is right.

[Dan Schultz]

Yes.

[PMeuph]

I knew of a pro player(tuba) who played Euphonium with a sawed off, filed down tuba mouthpiece that needed to be wrapped in paper to fit in the receiver. He sounded great...

YMMV...

[ShoelessWes]

Gap matters. Besson 983 and Alexander horns are good examples of gap sensitive instruments.

[bisontuba]

Yes--a HUGE difference......
Mark

[Doug Elliott]

I think the real question is "Does it matter how far the mouthpiece goes into the receiver?"
"Gap" is the wrong word, because most tubas don't have one, and therefore it can't be measured except on those few tubas that have such a thing.

[iiipopes]

Doc,

You're just way off in right field with that post. (Wait...we're still just in spring training, not regular season...so it's too early for me to post a joke like that...sorry! )

Schilke did much research on the gap on trumpets. It seems to make more of a difference on smaller instruments than larger instruments such as tubas.

[Lectron]

What about the ones where

• receiver is flush with leadpipe?
  smaller than leadpipe?

It's not given that leadpipe has a smaller diameter than receiver, and even if it has
What if it has been fillet brazed/tapered down from the receiver?

I've had instruments with big differences and instruments with hardly any at all.
And the ones spotted doesn't even have to be due to the decrease in gap

[Dan Schultz]

I think the real question is "Does it matter how far the mouthpiece goes into the receiver?"
"Gap" is the wrong word, because most tubas don't have one, and therefore it can't be measured except on those few tubas that have such a thing.

Although there usually is not a physical 'gap'.... there IS ALWAYS a point where the taper in the backbore converges with the taper in the leadpipe.

[Doug Elliott]

I think the real question is "Does it matter how far the mouthpiece goes into the receiver?"
"Gap" is the wrong word, because most tubas don't have one, and therefore it can't be measured except on those few tubas that have such a thing.

Although there usually is not a physical 'gap'.... there IS ALWAYS a point where the taper in the backbore converges with the taper in the leadpipe.

I suppose... but we were talking about a measurement of something that doesn't actually exist on most tubas.
It does exist on most trumpets.

[Ken Herrick]

The previous explanations are interesting........... In the end it comes down to the particular instrument, the mouthpiece and the player and what that player wants to have come out the bell. My opinion, based on my observations, is that, YES, it does make a difference.

I tend to prefer, in general terms, to have the mouthpiece a bit farther in than a lot of people on SOME instruments. On my old King monster rotary BBb I turned down the shank on my mouthpieces and for me it worked. On my current king I have also opened up the receiver a small amount and for me it works. It really is one of those YMMV situations.

IF you want to try having the mp out a bit further, get some of the super thin, laminated cork Ferees sells and wrap it around the shank and glue it on - rather like corking a clarinet joint. That can be easily reversed. This can also be a "repair" for a mp which has been turned down, or just doesn't fit a large receiver.

A word of caution when experimenting: the 'novelty' of a change and the expectation of improvement can give false impressions. Try changes in small increments and stick with it for a while.

Of course, in the end, there is simply no substitute for a lot of good practice which is the best way to overcome perceived 'problems'.

[pgym]

IF you want to try having the mp out a bit further, get some of the super thin, laminated cork Ferees sells and wrap it around the shank and glue it on - rather like corking a clarinet joint. That can be easily reversed. This can also be a "repair" for a mp which has been turned down, or just doesn't fit a large receiver.

Teflon tape works just as well (if not better), and is widely available, a heckuva lot cheaper, and don't require no steenkin' glue.

[DonnieMac]

Let us plow old ground: http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm" target="_blank

As well as an ancient US Patent: 3,808,935. The "gap" thing is well worked over and trumpet players adore it and have for a long time.

[Alan Baer]

Just as a clarification....
The gaps that I stated at the master class...
C tuba .350 Bb can go a bit more if more clarity is needed.
F tuba .125 Eb a little more if more clarity is needed.
These are starting points.... EVERY player is different and may need to adjust to their own taste. BUT... as I seen, these numbers work for MOST..
REMEMBER..
American shank is .520 at the end
EURO is .538
PT is .530
for every .001 you are off of these numbers.. the mouthpiece moves in or out of the horn .018!! This is huge...AND makes a huge difference in the way the instrument plays..
Know what your instrument needs!! Just because it is made in Europe does not mean that it needs a Euro shank!!!
have it measured and find out..
Good luck!
A Baer

[ghmerrill]

Just because it is made in Europe does not mean that it needs a Euro shank!!!
have it measured and find out..
A Baer

I think that on tubas there seems to be much more variability (than on other instruments) among receiver sizes and tapers. On my old oval euphonium, I'm not sure what other "standard" taper would reasonably fit into it other than a European one (which when I contacted Amati they confirmed was what I should use). I tried several mouthpieces in it (a Kelly, a few Wicks), but nothing really great resulted.

Last week I finally bit the bullet and went the Doug Elliott route for the mouthpieces for my euphonia. For the oval euph he sent two shanks for trial. One appeared to seat to the same depth as the SM4M I had been using. With what was a close approximation of a 3AL rim/cup, it worked quite well. The other seated further into the receiver: magic! A clearly noticeable improvement in the sound of the instrument across its range. There was absolutely no question that this shank was vastly superior on this instrument. It makes it a really nice-sounding horn.

[opus37]

Just as a clarification....
The gaps that I stated at the master class...
C tuba .350 Bb can go a bit more if more clarity is needed.
F tuba .125 Eb a little more if more clarity is needed.

Thank you for this clarification. Gap was just one of many great tips you gave during the master class. You gave a great presentation, Thank you!!!

[arpthark]

Hmm...

[Dan Schultz]

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Joe... I spent four years copying this stuff in the Navy. What the hell is di-da-di-di-da-dit?

[gwwilk]

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Using a Morse code translator this becomes:
"I LIKE "WOMAN, WOMAN"," "YOUNG GIRL," AND "LADY WILLPOWER" OK, BUT AM NOT CRAZY ABOUT MUCH OF THE REST OF THE STUFF. NO, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS...AT LEAST NOT ANYMORE"