Rotor valve direction difference explained (?)

[T. J. Ricer]

Hey Guys,
Since the question of rotary valve direction has been brought up and shot down a few times on this board, I thought this video might be of interest, as it does a better job of explaining things by using a cut out valve to show the concept. It is not so much the direction the valve turns that is the issue, as which port the air enters on the valve. Clear as mud?

As always, feel free to believe or disbelieve that this would make any noticeable difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R93fvioIZ28" target="_blank

the discussion of valve direction happens at 1:45

--T. J.

[Lingon]

...Since the question of rotary valve direction has been brought up and shot down a few times on this board, I thought this video might be of interest...

Thanks for the link. It confirms much of my experiences, that there is really something happening when changing direction, from different trombones and their valves.The internal shape of the valves may also have influence. However valve rotation and impact on a tuba, well that may be for the more experienced but this, as much other stuff, may be something to tinker with.

...I just don't know any professionals who play Yamaha symphony bore tenor or bass trombones except for one person I know...

Hmm, Douglas Yeo, Boston, and Ian Bousfield, Vienna, just to mention one for each, or you may have meant know personally?

[Lectron]

Open wrap and thayer valve FTW

[Lingon]

...Open wrap and thayer valve FTW ...

Hehehe, the open vs closed wrap could be discussed. I believe there have been done flow tests and no noticeable differences could be found. The open wrap is of course easier to make, fewer bends. And it is also a big sales gimmick with better water draining. The Thayer valve, of course it has an impact which also the Hagmann valve has. The sound is clearly different, but is it better or worse than anything else?!
FWIW, I heard rumors that one the big makers now have begun experimenting with different shaped spit valve corks and their impact on the sound...

[Dan Schultz]

cynical as it sounds.... After spending over 30 years in manufacturing, machine design, and automation... I find it very difficult to swallow that any manufacturing change is done to improve the product without making it cheaper to manufacture or more attractive to the market. Colleges are pouring out young folks with marketing degrees who don't have a clue how or why something is made the way it is.

I could care less which direction a rotor turns.

Let's get back to 'the gap' or 'silver vs. lacquer'... or the new thread about 'polishing the inside'.

[MartyNeilan]

Colleges are pouring out young folks with marketing degrees who don't have a clue how or why something is made the way it is.

There used to be a saying, something along the lines of, "There is no engineering problem that can't be solved by marketing." I think the auto industry learned this to be false the hard way.

[PMeuph]

Yeo paid money for his?

I don't know if Yeo personally footed the bill to his "signature" horn and mouthpiece, but I do know that other Yamaha artists usually buy their own horns (with a significant discount).
_____
What about Pete Sullivan?
http://www.yamaha.com/artists/petersullivan.html" target="_blank

[ghmerrill]

There used to be a saying, something along the lines of, "There is no engineering problem that can't be solved by marketing." I think the auto industry learned this to be false the hard way.

Well, the guys doing the actual design, engineering, and production did (of course they already knew this). But the guys with the marketing degrees, I think, did not -- since many have been rewarded with continuing jobs and benefits supported by tax dollars. I've worked to some degree with such marketing folks over a number of years, and some of them are very good in knowing the features of their products, benefits and disadvantages, and comparing these to competitors' products. But they typically share a fundamental belief and attitude, which is that it doesn't matter what they're selling (from shoes to pharmaceuticals to cars to software to ...) -- they can sell it and that's their job. Not at all unreasonable since that 's exactly what they're trained and hired to do. They are in a sales competition, and not a product competition. The problem arises when these people rise to a level in the company where they then have the power to make design, quality, and production decisions. Short-term sales statistics (linked to the sort of compensation that sales and marketing is driven by) in turn then drive design and production quality decisions with predictable results. And mean time between vice presidents in such situations is probably on the order of two or three years. Then the VP moves on to another similar job -- and another like him is rotated into the vacant position.

[Lingon]

...I find it very difficult to swallow that any manufacturing change is done to improve the product without making it cheaper to manufacture or more attractive to the market...

Exact. I.e. the open wrap...

...I could care less which direction a rotor turns...

That might have more influence than we think, maybe depending on how the rest of the horn is built...

[jeopardymaster]

None of this helps me resolve my personal xenophobia.

[Lingon]

....I wonder why my rotary F tuba plays so much better than so many other rotary F tubas...

Much better built than most other ones? An operator that knows how to handle it?

[fsgazda]

I cannot tell you what they paid for them, but the principal trombonists in Seattle, Utah, Pittsburgh, and Vienna, plus the bass trombonists in Boston and Pittsburgh all play Xenos. I also know of quite a few NY and LA studio bass trombonists who play on the 613 or 830. I have been told by a couple of Yamaha artists that no one gets the instruments for free anymore, but they do get a discount.

Apparently Dave Finlayson from the NY Phil is playing one now also (don't know if he uses it in the orchestra or not). Check out this video of a camera mounted on his slide:

http://www.davidfinlayson.com/Videos/Tr ... liness.m4v

Having played the new Yamahas a fair amount, I have no idea what the heck difference reversing a valve makes, but the horns play very well and are well made.

[Mudman]

Vanilla-b-gone. Yamaha has finally produced trombones that have character in the sound.

Larry Zalkind sounds pretty incredible on his Xeno. He used the Xeno for the year spent playing principal in the LA Phil, and continues to use it in the Utah Symphony.

Some of the modifications to the horn actually cost more to produce than less. I think there was something about Yamaha using a 3-piece cork barrel (where the inner slide is mounted to the hand grip), instead of a cheaper 1-piece solution. The open wrap that sticks out the back further than normal was also a design decision heavily influenced by Zalkind. The engineers may have wanted to go more in the direction of a closed wrap design (can't remember specifics--don't quote me on that factiod). A ton of different prototypes were developed over several years before the final models hit the market--not a cheap process.

The Xeno bass bone (YBL-830) is one of the easiest bass trombones to play. One way to describe it would be to say that it plays like a tenor in the upper register and sounds great all the way through the gorilla-suit register. I would have no hesitation recommending this horn to students, and would not be afraid to use it in any professional setting.

As for rotor direction, companies will market any feature of a product to make a buck. Brass players are often gullible enough to buy into the latest hype (guilty as charged, your honor). It takes something to market a horn. If Yamaha started to include string-activated spit valves like some European trombones use, I'm sure that would become another marketing feature.

The question I have always had about artist endorsements is "would player XXXXX have won the job on the instrument he endorses?" Yamaha seems to use established players to market their instruments. It will be interesting to see if any of the next great brass players wins a major position playing a Yamaha.

[Art Hovey]

Getting back to the original topic: The video shows a rotor appearing to block the input port of a valve when it is turned the "wrong" way. What it does not show is how the output port will appear to be blocked by exactly the same amount when the rotor is turned the "right" way.

Here's my theory about how the rotation issue may have been originated: On most rotary tubas the third and fourth valves turn the opposite way from the first and second so that the pushrods can be a bit closer together. Depressing the third or fourth valve puts a lot more tubing into play than does the first or second, so it takes more effort to get the air moving and vibrating in that longer tubing. Also, since the third and fourth valves are not used as often as the first and second, sometimes the air trapped in that tubing cools off a bit while waiting, causing a decrease in pressure which results in a "pop" when the valve is depressed. It is easy to blame both of those effects on the direction of rotation instead of on the real causes.

I suspect that an honest blindfold test would fail to show any difference due to reversal of rotation, but a good snake-oil salesman could easily convince most of us that it makes a huge difference.

[MartyNeilan]

...Also, since the third and fourth valves are not used as often as the first and second, sometimes the air trapped in that tubing cools off a bit while waiting, causing a decrease in pressure which results in a "pop" when the valve is depressed...

I am a big fan of getting valves vented, and this is one of the reasons.
(Admittedly, it is much easier to vent pistons than rotors.)