Aluminum Tuba

[Misterguru]

I'm just curious: has anyone ever made an aluminum tuba?

[David Richoux]

Not likely!

There have been a few aluminum String Double-Bass instruments around.

I did find this.

[J.c. Sherman]

Brass is soft - that's why they make brass instruments out of it. Aluminium is a much greater challenge to work with - I think it would border on the impossible - and I can't imagine a good reason to try it, IMHO. It'd be wildly expensive to try.

J.c.S.

[David Richoux]

Brass is soft - that's why they make brass instruments out of it. Aluminium is a much greater challenge to work with - I think it would border on the impossible - and I can't imagine a good reason to try it, IMHO. It'd be wildly expensive to try.

J.c.S.

(Putting on my Industrial Design hat)
Depending on the alloy, aluminum can be quite easy to form - all of the processes that are used to make the parts a brass horn could be done with aluminum (spinning, hydro-forming, tube making, etc.) Assembly would be a little trickier - probably using more adhesives instead of solder - so the valve cluster might still be made of brass or it could be a cast part. Anodized finishes (in a variety of colors) could be cool.

The big questions would be if the acoustic qualities would be similar enough to brass, and if the weight savings would be worth the extra material costs. My gut feel is probably not, on both questions.

[J.c. Sherman]

Brass is soft - that's why they make brass instruments out of it. Aluminium is a much greater challenge to work with - I think it would border on the impossible - and I can't imagine a good reason to try it, IMHO. It'd be wildly expensive to try.

J.c.S.

(Putting on my Industrial Design hat)
Depending on the alloy, aluminum can be quite easy to form - all of the processes that are used to make the parts a brass horn could be done with aluminum (spinning, hydro-forming, tube making, etc.) Assembly would be a little trickier - probably using more adhesives instead of solder - so the valve cluster might still be made of brass or it could be a cast part. Anodized finishes (in a variety of colors) could be cool.

Right - the assembly was mostly what I was thinking of... and most of the moving parts issues would be largely a series of guesses. Anodized sousaphones would have an awsome look, though
The big questions would be if the acoustic qualities would be similar enough to brass, and if the weight savings would be worth the extra material costs. My gut feel is probably not, on both questions.

[Kevin Hendrick]

ISTR reading about a tuba that Cerveny built in the (1890s?) that had aluminum added to the brass alloy -- won some kind of award, I think. Wonder what the practical percentage limits would be as far as that approach goes?

[Tubaryan12]

aluminum...

-- rot resistance...??

We got that covered, bloke. Just coat the inside of the instrument with the same stuff the inside of a pop or beer can is coated in. Tuba players' spit is mostly beer anyway.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

[hup_d_dup]

aluminum...
- malleability...??

Aluminum is highly malleable.

Hup

[David Richoux]

aluminum...
- malleability...??

Aluminum is highly malleable.

Hup

The trick is to get malleability while forming but then resistance to denting after that - there is some work hardening and methods of hardening available, but nothing like sheet steel. Brass has been used for making instruments for so long most of the questions have been answered.

[Mikelynch]

At the first Tuba Conference in 1973, there was a presentation by someone who had been working on forming french horns out of aluminum, and he was looking for interest and funding in expanding that work to make aluminum tubas. To the best of my now 39 year stale memory, most or all pieces other than the valves were to be cast.

That was my first hearing of an effort to make "brass" instruments from aluminum--and as it ends up, that was my last hearing of anyone supposedly trying to do it.

Mike

[Art Hovey]

I think it's already been done. I was asked to sight-read a band concert some time back in the 70s, and there was a guy there with a nearly-new school-owned tuba that looked like lacquered brass, but the scratches on the bell showed white metal under the lacquer which looked like aluminum to me. It may have been a test-marketing thing. Who is going to complain about an inexpensive lightweight small-bore, three-valve top-action tuba that plays pretty much like every other small-bore top-action student model? In a school the bell would probably be smashed before the aluminum rotted through anyway.

[Tim Jackson]

The Aluminum Upright Bass… certainly rare for one reason!
During the old days, the 70s, Vandercook College of Music, Chicago had 1 or2. They are great instruments. They served a valuable roll in making the fiberglass basses much more popular. When you checked out a bass for practice, if a plywood or fiberglass was available you were in luck and happy. I can say no matter how bad the day was going if you played the alum bass you had to laugh. A mood enhancing bass! The aluminum bass is great for transitioning to the wash tub sound. Actually the sound is similar… strange metallic ring on certain pitches.
It was a marvel that someone would actually choose aluminum for bass making. Plenty of pondering figuring that one out. Maybe after the great Chicago fire wood was at a premium. H.E. Nut was still there at that time and was a very interesting guy. He was a direct student of Mr. Vandercook. Since Vandercook was THE music ed school back in the 30s, 40, 50s, they had some very interesting and unique instruments used in teaching in the old days. I loved the Mando Bass. Think that was the name. A regular upright bass with a flat fretted finger board half way down the neck, the fretless past the octave. VERY COOL. I was less interested in the full set of brass instruments with no valves. Bugles shaped like tubas, baritones and trumpets. Mr. Nut said it was to keep the distractions down while concentrating on producing a tone. Now that is a good idea, but now days they would probably end up in the beginner drum and bugle corp training. It was a wonderful year… I made very good friends with my 186, and took lessons with Arnold Jacobs. Hearing the Chicago Sym for the first time was a life changing event… even in the nose bleed seats at the Studebaker. The aluminum tuba… hmm, once we have made every size, shape, country origin, color, key, new name tuba to entice young players to buy a new model, we may finally see the aluminum tuba take shape. IT would be nice to have one down here in Florida, with the salt air and all. Maybe the lead model for deep sea divers. I did make an aluminum mouthpiece once... should be buried along with the alum bass. Tim Jackson

[GC]

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f88/aluminum-bass-162092/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f1/alumin ... es-504621/

And Kramer built aluminum electric basses and guitars from the mid-'70's to early '80's.

I am certain that I saw pages from an old Conn catalog within the last few months that had an aluminum-bodied upright bass.

[MikeS]

How about the (fictional) Apollo trumpets? It comes up a ways into the video but I don't think you'll mind waiting for it. Warning: This video might cause you to get paranoid about psychological manipulation in the elephant room at shows. Don't fight the feeling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-V04R1h ... re=channel" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I think this is even funnier when you know that the guy on the right plays for the Philadelphia Orchestra and the guy on the left is the trumpet professor at Penn.

By the way, I heard Mr. Schilke play the aluminum bell trumpet one Saturday morning at the store on Wabash Ave. It was enough to convince me that further exploration is not required.

[Rick Denney]

Check out the materials research Ren Schilke did. Some results were as expected, some wildly different. Very interesting reading...

A couple of things we always have to keep in mind about Schilke's research, at least the part of it that I read: 1.) It was related to trumpets, which have an overtone range that at least has a chance of extending up to where the characteristics of the material are really important, and 2.) it was anecdotal and subject to testing bias.

I don't think there's any reason to think that an aluminum tuba could not be effective.

But I think if one tried to make it the same way brass instruments are made, the results would be poor. I would cast and machine the valve body, including the ports, because brazing and soldering are not good joining methods with aluminum. With a cast section, the ports would be quite thickly walled, which would be hard to solder in a brass instrument but easy if using epoxy. The valve body could be a hard alloy of aluminum for durability, like 6061 with a T6 hardness (aka--aircraft aluminum).

The bell could be spun in such a way as to produce quite a strong material (strong in terms of yield strength). The Humes and Berg symphonic mutes are spun aluminum, and they are at least as resistant to dents as a brass tuba. The straight tapers of the outer branches could also be spun, and the bows could be hydroformed or hammered, though if hammered I would add hard stiffeners for protection. Aluminum when annealed more than malleable enough--we've all seen Jesse James or whatever his name is using an English wheel and a hammer to make motorcycle fuel tanks from annealed aluminum sheets.

Because the material is much less dense than brass, the walls could be made thicker for greater stiffness and dent resistance, and still make a lighter tuba than is typical with brass.

If the aluminum is appropriately anodized, it can be made pretty resistant to corrosion.

Brass has been used, sure enough. But the sum of the evolution has defined the instrument as much as the instrument has guided the evolution. We've worked out the details of making brass instruments, but those details are dictated by the brass as much as they are dictated by the desired end result. Making a tuba from aluminum would require a ground-up reconsideration of construction techniques.

Rick "thinking aluminum is a heck of a lot more like brass than plastic is, but plastic tubas still sound like tubas" Denney

[pjv]

Not to put a dent on this entry, but

The aluminum contra-bass I heard (Conn??) sounded terrible and was quite inaudible.

-Pat

[tbn.al]

I think this is even funnier when you know that the guy on the right plays for the Philadelphia Orchestra and the guy on the left is the trumpet professor at Penn.

The Chase lick at the end really brings back memories. There used to be a guy in Alabama that had the rights to all the recordings plus some rehearsal tapes that were amazing. Heard 'em live once. That was one I'll never forget.

[Rick Denney]

The aluminum contra-bass I heard (Conn??) sounded terrible and was quite inaudible.

The reasons for that can be many, and most of those might be unrelated to the material used. I've certainly played brass tubas that I thought sounded terrible and were inaudible. Some of those situations might have even been the tuba's fault.

Rick "correlation does not prove causation" Denney

[sloan]

Rick "correlation does not prove causation" Denney

N of 1 doesn't even establish correlation.

[pjv]

I live in Holland and theres a music shop in Amsterdam called Palm Guitars and they rent it out (or at least they used to).

And yes Rick, just because I thought it sounded lousy and feeble doesn't mean that all metal basses were useless.

On the other hand, it didn't catch on for a reason did it? Its possible that it was a great idea that never caught on, but not probable.

-Cheers, Pat