cimbasso/contra-bone mpc recommendations?

[pjv]

Howdy,

Which mpc's would ya'll recommend for cimbassi and/or contrabass trombones? I'm also interested in what type of mpc specifications players have found to be beneficial for these cylindrical monsters.

I've checked the "topic search" function but haven't been successful. Any links would also be welcome.

-Cheers, Patrick

[UDELBR]

This one!

[modelerdc]

There are some goodchoices. The first thing to consider is rim size. A tubaplayer on cimbassi mlght want to use a tuba rim with shallower cup. A bone player on contra bone might want something something a bit smaller. Doug elliott can fix you a mpc with just about any combo you need. Among mouthpieces made for contra bones in f the most common size is 30 mm rim size and mpcs in this size are made by kanstul, ferguson, bach,
yes bach makes a 30 contra bone mpc not the same as the tuba mpc, as do thein, and kleir. The klier conta range is from 29 to 31 mm. The Jin Bao contra comes with a mpc that is 30MM rim, but has a cup about halfway between a schilke 59 and 60. Rath makes a couple ofcontra mpcs just less than 29 mm, probably for british players who play 1 1/2g sizes on bass. They also make 31.2mm contra mpc probably intended for british tubists used to 24 aw sizes. Miraphones bb flat contra comes with a mpc originally made for f tuba. Greg black makes some contra mpcs judging by the sizes they appear to be suited for bone players. The Marcinkiewicz contra mouthpieces also seem to be oversized 60s. I heard that the bobo tuba mpc for euphonuim can be used on contra but i think its rather shallow for that use. Lastly it will be seen that the largest bass bone mpcs overlap the smaller contra mpcs and some players who play mpcs the size of a 60 or larger have used their bass bone mpc on contra although some fine exponents of the instrument say its best to have a larger dedicated mpc.

[Joe Stanko]

I have a Bach CB30 and it's very different than a bass trombone or tuba mouthpiece. The taper on the shank is unique - not suited for most currently made contrabass trombone leadpipes which are designed to take a standard Morse tapered large shank trombone mouthpiece.

I just received Greg Black's contrabass model - it's taller than a standard bass trombone mouthpiece but the shank is Morse tapered like a standard large shank trombone mouthpiece.

It'll take some time to evaluate the Black, and that could result in altering the leadpipe if it is a good choice in an F contrabass. The Bach CB30 would require a custom made leadpipe which properly matches the taper of the shank, an option which is not off the table at this point.

For anyone interested, feel free to email me as it will take a few weeks to initially evaluate the Black and leadpipe adjustments may be involved.

Joe Stanko

[modelerdc]

Speaking of mouthpieces and leadpipes, it seems that most (not all) contra trombones and mpcs intended for them have a bass trombone sized shank and but many of the Cimbassis may have take tuba sized shanks. Check which you need before buying. Joe, would be interested in knowing who to go to for F contra leadpipes, thank you!

[pjv]

Thanks gentleman for the tips. I'll be getting down on this soon.

-Patrick

[Jay Bertolet]

Actually, I started my cimbasso mouthpiece journey from a very different perspective than it ended up proceeding. I started out with the premise that the thing should sound unlike a tuba, and like (predictably) a cimbasso. I was using a Doug Elliot mouthpiece that I still really like but it was ultimately a little uncomfortable for me (a tad on the small side) and produced a somewhat smaller, tighter sound. We did a production of Turandot here a couple of years ago and, on a lark, I brought a few big mouthpieces to one of the rehearsals for the added pedal CCs in the middle of the opera. I was doing some warming up with those mouthpieces to see which one might work in the hall and the bass trombone player commented on how great the cimbasso sounded with one of those mouthpieces, in this case a Laskey 30F. He being a really great player and also having lots of cimbasso experience, it made me take notice. I gave that mouthpiece a shot for some of the other stuff in the opera (those of you that have played this book know what a huge blow it is) and found myself liking it more and more. Nowadays I'm using the 30F almost all the time, I pull out the Doug Elliot for parts that really require a smaller and brighter sound but normally I'm using the Laskey most of the time.

My ultimate suggestion is to approach your selection process with "characteristic sound" in mind but don't eliminate options simply because they might not seem to make sense. Keep an open mind and don't be afraid to consider mouthpieces that make a great sound, even if a little less cylindrical in nature.

Have fun!

[Bob Kolada]

For slide F horns, I like my JK 2C.

[Doug Elliott]

At the ETW a week ago, several people borrowed my CB 122 rim and P cup with an American tuba shank, to try the new Rath contra, and all of them said it worked extremely well. That's a pretty deep cup but apparently it played much better than shallower cups they were also trying.

I didn't get to hear it - I was on the other side of the room. For the tuba workshop it's appropriately referred to as the Elephant room... what's the proper terminology for the trombone workshop?

[cambrook]

I have mostly used the JK KBP-1B, but also an older Schilke 62 works pretty well. The last season I played cimbasso I used a Blokepiece Solo #1 (with a prototype lightweight rim) and liked it a lot.

Jut like with tubas - different mouthpieces work well on different instruments; and also work differently for different people.

[pjv]

True, but being new to the cimbasso world I want to get pointed in the right direction as to what others deem as being successful and the take it from there.

I believe a board member once said "buy, try, sell, repeat."

thanx
Pat

[J.c. Sherman]

Admittedly, the phrase "I wanted it to sound like a cimbasso" made me LOL. A bit circular for an instrument which is a) not standardized and b) originally a serpent.

The OP's question is basically impossible to answer without an instrument to reference. On my F contrabass trombone, I'm pretty happy with my Kanstul 2A (identical to the Ferguson 2A). But I have a smaller bore, larger bell throat instrument than the Kanstul. I'm trying out a Doug Elliot mouthpiece similar to a 1G and may run with that for a while. The pitch in the high range is a little better on it

On my .640 bore BBb cimbasso, I use a Yamaha CB. It helps the articulation, but it is a little dak in the pp passages.

On a Miraphone BBb slide bone, I highly recommend the Yamaha 67B4. I've recorded with it and it makes it sound like a trombone and the pitch is good.

On my serpent I use a mouthpiece of my own manufacture; on my ophicleide (also a "cimbasso" I use a DEG nylon trombone mouthpiece when I play with modern ensembles.

Catch my drift? You gotta have an instrument in mind. But the final sound should be something you've decided for this hybrid "idea" instrument. For me... it's a contrabass trombone, and brilliant sounding as a result. Unless the work calls for something more conical, in which case my modern "cimbassi" stay home.

[cjk]

I know nothing about this topic, but I'm wondering what folks think about the Marcinkiewicz models 105, 106, and 107. Marcinkiewicz considers those models to be contrabass trombone mouthpieces. I've messed around with a 107 stuck in an old American EEb with one of the bass trombone sized receivers.

[Donn]

Those are not larger-enough than run-of-the-mill bass trombone mouthpieces for me to consider them "missing link" mouthpieces. Think of a Schilke 60, except with a normal-width (rather than very thin) rim.

Somewhere got the idea that 106 and 107 are over 30mm diameter, making them a hair larger than 2A, 30CB etc., a half mm larger than the Laskey 95D (very large bass trombone), and a mm larger than the 60. Subject to measurement variation.

[pjv]

In reference to the type of cimbasso I play; I originally left this out intentionally. I hoped to get as many reactions as possible in order to get a broader perspective on what people us. After all, mpc's are individual to the player+axe. What one player uses on a smaller horn works great for another on a larger one.

Tim Sullivan made a very large BBb cimbasso for me from a 186 valve set with an Olds baritone bell. He felt avoiding too many bends would help free up the sound so its a rather tall instrument. Its earning its keep and stay!

-Patrick

[J.c. Sherman]

In reference to the type of cimbasso I play; I originally left this out intentionally. I hoped to get as many reactions as possible in order to get a broader perspective on what people us. After all, mpc's are individual to the player+axe. What one player uses on a smaller horn works great for another on a larger one.

Tim Sullivan made a very large BBb cimbasso for me from a 186 valve set with an Olds baritone bell. He felt avoiding too many bends would help free up the sound so its a rather tall instrument. Its earning its keep and stay!

-Patrick

In that case, I'd try the Yamaha 67B4. Tuba rim, characteristic sound. Works well on the G&P/Kalison Fs as well. YMMV

[Bove]

If you're new to the cimbasso, just use your normal f tuba mouthpiece for a while. Something not too big, perhaps a 9. This way you can just get used to making a nice sound on the thing. Cimbasso plays different than a tuba, and it's nice to have something familiar to keep you feeling at home while you learn to make music on the new instrument. As you start to adapt to it, you'll figure out if you want something smaller or not.

What are you using the instrument for? Do you want to blend with a trombone section for some Verdi? Do you want to crush low notes for a film soundtrack? Are you playing in a brass ensemble? Jazz ensemble? Solos? Being that there is no standard cimbasso "sound", you may even find yourself switching for different applications.

[pjv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLAPQUHu9SQ" target="_blank" target="_blank

is what I use it for (its a long sample, so maybe listen starting at 4 minutes). I've had the horn for a year, but only used it sporadically in a show which wasn't too demanding, using my Bloke Solo + #1 rim.

Now I'm playing it in a show on YouTube, which takes me from E above middle C to C a second above pedal Bb. In the sample above I'm almost covering that range (middle C to D a third above the pedal).

The horn plays real open downstairs and upstairs but it can be a bit dodgy in the staff. This is in part due to the fact that I don't practice the horn enough! The 5th partial being very flat requires the constant usage of adult fingerings (d, db, c, b) and this really challenges my precision on the horn.

What I can't say is how much of the "dodgyness" is due to an improper mpc match and/or horn imperfections. The mpc sound is real nice and clean but the times right to test blow another to see if I can clean up my precision in the staff.

I'm thankful for the responses and who knows; if I ever buy a F cimbasso I might be doing this all over again!

-Cheers, Patrick