4 valve BBb's vs 5 valve CC's

[MartyNeilan]

I was told that the sound is contrabass. A friend of mine who subbed on Broadway on a book with tuba recently was not called back because he didn't have the right sound. He plays, if I'm not mistaken, a York Monster Eb. As I was told, the feedback from the MD was too bright and light for the pit.

From everything I've read here, it looks like CC is the best bet for me.

I have heard "monster" Eb's get some very big fat sounds. I had an old Conn "giant" Eb that had a bigger sound than many 186's. I think much of it has to do with the player - a 184 BBb or CC can have a very bright sound if played that way. Some orchestral players are able to get huge fat sounds out of the modern 5/4-6/4 F tubas. I have also heard of a "studio" bass trombone doubler sticking a Bach 1 1/2 G mouthpiece all the way into a BBb tuba and playing it like a bass trombone - needless to say his tracks were overdubbed by a genuine tuba player.
Much of the lightness and brightness has to do with your approach to the horn - a Conn .656 bore contrabass tuba can be a blatfest in the wrong hands but sounds incredible the times I have heard Kyle Turner play his.
When I went from tuba to doubling bass trombone, it took me a couple of years studying with a symphony trombone player to get a "real" bass trombone sound and not sound like a tuba player trying to play a bass trombone.
Part of the sound concept is the instrument, but much of it is the player's approach to the instrument.
Again, is the "TubeNetFreakJury" the right audience to be asking these questions?

[toobagrowl]

I was told that the sound is contrabass. A friend of mine who subbed on Broadway on a book with tuba recently was not called back because he didn't have the right sound. He plays, if I'm not mistaken, a York Monster Eb. As I was told, the feedback from the MD was too bright and light for the pit.
From everything I've read here, it looks like CC is the best bet for me.

I have heard "monster" Eb's get some very big fat sounds. I had an old Conn "giant" Eb that had a bigger sound than many 186's. I think much of it has to do with the player - a 184 BBb or CC can have a very bright sound if played that way.

The old "Monster" Eb tubas, whether they be York, Holton or Conn, do have very fat sounds. But they still can't compete with typical 4/4+ CC and BBb tubas - ESPECIALLY below the staff. The Miraphone 186 has a completely different sound - it's much more direct/lean and heavy. It's the thickness/heavyness of sound in contrabass tubas (esp. in the low register) that make them sound VERY different in comparison to even large bass tubas in an ensemble and out front to the audience.

My old Holton Eb's work great for quintet and other small chamber groups. But they still don't even come close to the thickness/darkness/fullness in sound of my large rotary CC and BBb tubas.

The old York monster Eb tubas are even fluffier/lighter/more buoyant in sound than the old Holton monster Eb's, so it does not surprise me that it may sound too bright for Broadway work. The MD may prefer a darker rotary contrabass sound.

[J.c. Sherman]

Couple points:

I truly still feel that - not just technically - but operationally the Besson Sovereigns and Imperials are true double tubas, and have the weight of a contra in the bottom end. It is much more about the player than the equipment. Is it a Yorkbrunner? Of course not. But it can play fair with a 186, and leap about with better facility. YMMV, IMHA, etc. They work for many doublers, and they can support much larger orchestras, and do so all over the world.

Bloke, you're right about the Bessons... did your examples have flush-fit buttons? Mine had the inset style which effectively lengthens the valve stem much like some older Conn. When I find a euph or tuba with "stuffiness", it’s usually because someone has replaced the buttons with new ones without that extension.

At the base of all of this is that the player matters far, far more than the ax. If you can't support a 20 piece pit... it ain’t because you've got the wrong horn Oh, and you're more likely than not to be miked down there, so...

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/provincialism

+1

[PMeuph]

My former prof had 3 tubas he would use regularly, A big Rudolf meinl CC with 4 valves, a Besson 981, a B&S Symphonie. He would use the Besson 981 on a lot of repertoire (even some big stuff like the Mahler symphonies and Bruckner) when he hurt his pinky finger. The only person who every noticed and was upset that he brought several tubas was the personal manager, as he had to be paid doubler's pay.

To the Op: Is borrowing a tuba, from a community band, a friend, a school, renting one from a store a possibility. I think you would probably gain a lot from finding a horn you are comfortable with in real life and not based on the descriptions from a forum....

[Mark]

Why don't you go to Dillon Music and talk with them. Try all of the tubas that they recommend for pit work, new and used. If the one you like the most is new and out of your price range, then at least you know what used tuba to look for.

[BMadsen]

The OP put in his signature "NY Professional Low Brass Freelancer."

I have a couple of good friends in NY that are serious doublers and have steady gigs on Broadway in NYC. If I lived in that market, I'd get to know that sort of professional and check out what they recommend/successfully use in their daily gig.

Pay for lessons, buy beers, etc...

TubeNet isn't exactly a "go to" source.

That's exactly what I am doing. I study with one Broadway player, have taken lessons with a few others. However, not everyone is the quickest to respond to questions, as they are rather busy. So, as I ask them, I also look for information from other sources. If you remember the original question, I was asking the reason why so many high level Bb tubas you see for sale have 4 valves vs C's that have 5. It's blossomed into more than that, but based off of what I've seen and heard from players here, and more so from the Broadway pros who have since gotten back to me, I'm more and more convinced that C is the choice for me.

Why don't you go to Dillon Music and talk with them. Try all of the tubas that they recommend for pit work, new and used. If the one you like the most is new and out of your price range, then at least you know what used tuba to look for.

That's my plan - it's just easier to figure this stuff out if you don't have to try a ton of instruments. Based on all I've learned, a 4/4 C with 5 valves is the best choice. I'm actually going there next week to try some tuba's out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/provincialism

+1

Not sure what all of this is about - if it's a reference to me, I'm sorry I gave that impression. If it's a reference to the MD's, it comes down to the market. I personally know about 10 guys who double on the entire low brass family. There are definitely a lot more. So, MD's have the option to be picky and demand a certain sound. If there were only 2 or 3, they'd have to take what they could get.

[BMadsen]

Well, I can understand that now - I've heard many similar stories. Not all of them from NY, mind you - LA, Chicago, Boston, even the Twin Cities (my own home town). Probably a "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" issue.

In the end, if you want to work on Broadway, you have to make them happy.

[mbell]

Since some have said the Cerveny Piggy was designed with opera pits in mind, I wonder how well it might work in a Broadway pit? Since it is small it would be a bit easier to lug around in addition to a trombone. 5 valve versions are available new and 4 valve versions can be found very inexpensively on the used market.

mike

[J.c. Sherman]

+1 to bloke again...

There's never a time when you can't recommend a Cerveny Pig

J.c.S.

[PhilGreen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/provincialism

So when did the US become an island? Or (please excuse the terrible grammar) a province?

You guys crack me up! Don't be so hard on yourselves........

[Wyvern]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/provincialism

So when did the US become an island? Or (please excuse the terrible grammar) a province?

You guys crack me up! Don't be so hard on yourselves........

Maybe he was thinking Manhattan Island?

[bort]

Maybe he was thinking Manhattan Island?

Wait... I'm on an island?

[MartyNeilan]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=49496
For a 4/4 do-all 5 valve CC, I doubt you will find a better one in this price range.

[BMadsen]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=49496
For a 4/4 do-all 5 valve CC, I doubt you will find a better one in this price range.

Drat, if not for my silver allergy, it looks great, and I could probably work out a pickup somewhere in between NY and Buffalo.

[swillafew]

The key of the horn doesn't have much effect on the lowest note available. A 5 valve F tuba should work fine for a doubler. Why worry, get the horn you like the tone, ergonomics, and price.

[Rick Denney]

Please, folks, the OP did suggest he wanted a five-valve CC tuba for $3000. There are few choices at that price, new or used, and most of those are going to be Chinese.

Personally, I think it's an impossible scenario. Something has to give. A four-valve C tuba is challenging on some notes, but very high-end performers have defined high standards with them. When you are on a budget but looking for a particular style of sound, the fifth valve is an expensive option that you might have to give up.

I gave that same advice to a regular here who is an old friend and professional (which I'm not). And sure enough, setting aside the requirement for a fifth valve opened the door to a very good large tuba for orchestral subbing, which was the activity he needed to support. But it was still more than $3000.

I doubt an Old O-99 would make a bigger sound than a Monster Eb Bass, even though it's in Bb rather than Eb. But I bet the Olds would be a hell of lot easier to play in tune, though.

Rick "wondering if the MD's complaint was that the sound was bright when it was really 25 cents sharp" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

2J's and Weril 680/1's seem pretty popular amongst trombone players doing Broadway shows. On the Conns, and possibly the Werils, you can flat tune the 4th and play chromatically down to the pedal.

[PMeuph]

Rick "wondering if the MD's complaint was that the sound was bright when it was really 25 cents sharp" Denney

The conductor of the brass band I play with uses the word "bright" instead of sharp. Maybe it's because he's British...

....Otherwise noting that there's probably a lot of truth in your statement...

[J.c. Sherman]

It occurs to me after scratching my head on this topic that probably the reason the MDs want a “contrabass” sound is because they've run across too many doublers who sound like they are doubling... i.e. who play with a too-brilliant tone and/or on a "comfortable" mouthpiece.

I'd wager high money that those same MDs wouldn't know a contrabass tuba from a rototiller, let alone from a large Eb bass. The OP plays Eb, hence a few suggestions here to stick with what he knows already. Adding another fingering system, the sight-reading on one may be a little inhabitual for the OP (just guessing, not accusing). If I'm sight-reading a gig, while I can and sometimes do use a CC or BBb (depends on the size of the section/ensemble) I will preferably show up with an Eb... "home base (bass?)" for me.

Play with a good, broad tuba tone, nail the part, and no one will care if what key you're playing. Bring a BAT and you're liable to get "the hand" and the ire of the MD.

Just sayin'

J.c.S.