Accent or other brands for HS

[pierso20]

I am purchasing all new equipment for a start-up music program....from scratch. Including music., stands, chairs, auxiliary percussion, etc.

I have a decent budget and we are buying things as we need them. However, I still can't afford to outfit our school with a bunch of Miraphones or MW tubas.

Anyone have experience with Accent or the cheaper Jupiter models? What other models would you recommend that are good but will not break the band. $5-6k per instrument is out of the question.

I'm not asking about if they are good for a professional. I'm asking if you think they'll get the job done and be alright concerning repairs and "abuse".

BTW, we have a VERY strict policy on student instrument borrows. Our school is a HS, so no middle school abuse. We are also a "magnet" school and an "option school" (students in our county can elect to attend - it is entirely optional). So the behavior/dedication is much better than most of my experience.

Thoughts?

[pierso20]

Make an instrumental agreement form stating any damages to the instrument must be paid by the renter....

If you do that...there should be no problem with either horn brand you mentioned

If you read my post I stated that we have a strict policy on borrowed instruments... I already made a kid replace a bass drum mallet.

[ghmerrill]

For the setting you are describing, the Allora instruments seem to get very good reviews (modulo as "budget" instruments when compared against Miraphones, etc.) and there are several past threads in this forum concerning them. Here's an example viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36585 . I have no experience with them, but several reports mention that they are made of heavier brass than other alternatives -- which I think is always an advantage in school instruments. Current discounted prices for the tubas seem to be in the $2,000-$3000 range.

[MartyNeilan]

I might consider Mack Brass, or talking to Al if he ever gets back in the business.

Other comments:
I would avoid Cerveny due to the thin brass, some schools have picked them because they are cheaper than the 'phones, but they don't last as long.
I don't particularly like the large Yamaha 4 rotor BBb's and they are probably out of your price range.
I really wouldn't want to spend more than two grand per instrument. Unless this is a private high school or an "arts high" then you know the horns are going to receive substantial damage within a few years.

P.S. Strict policies look great on paper. It is one thing getting a kid's parents to cough up $20 for a mallet. It is entirely something else to get $1500 for a complete overhaul.

[iiipopes]

I am still a fan of the venerable King 2341. Built like a tank. Nested valve block. Any repair shop worth its tools will have a morgue of "crash parts" available. Lasts forever with even minimal care. Good intonation and scale. Comparatively easy to play. Not finicky about mouthpiece selection.

Regarding "strict policy," yes, that is good, and we had one. But it can backfire. The best way is to promote a positive culture of appreciating the instruments so the students want to take care of them. My HS souzy section, with school colors of blue and white, had fiberglass Kings. We would compete to see who could make them the whitest with proper cleaning and maintenance techniques.

The way you described the school, this might be possible.

[ghmerrill]

I don't know how "robust" the Jin Bao tubas are. I truly love my Mack Brass compensating euph. Tremendous sound and intonation, and I'm even using it now with a 2AL mouthpiece to play the bass trombone part in a community band. Enormous projection. But the bell brass is pretty thin (comparable to my Cerveny red brass tuba), and I'd be reluctant to put it in the hands of a middle or high school student. The tubas may be made of sterner stuff. I just don't know.

[Dan Schultz]

Even though a well-equipped repair shop can handle most things... If I was buying new horns for a school, it would be a great comfort to me to know that repair parts such as pistons are available.

My experience has been that some folks who sell the lower-priced instruments don't like to address such matters and are more interested in the retail sales.

Jupiter has a great parts program and from what I understand Accent parts are readily available, too.

[Uncle Buck]

I am still a fan of the venerable King 2341. Built like a tank. Nested valve block. Any repair shop worth its tools will have a morgue of "crash parts" available. Lasts forever with even minimal care. Good intonation and scale. Comparatively easy to play. Not finicky about mouthpiece selection.

+1

[MackBrass]

I know I carry parts and as a matter of fact arriving in June I will have lead-pipes, ball-ends, paddle assembles, bells, bass and tenor t-bone triggers, screws, upper and lower valve caps, finger buttons and receivers for most of the models I carry. I have heard people say that dealers dont carry or stock parts and I am listening to those cries and will be the exception. One thing I must say is, its not just the small dealers selling the inexpensive instruments that don't stock parts, most dealers only order them when needed as it really doesn't make sence to stock 100 ball ends for the rare occasion when one is really needed. There is nothing that can not be ordered if not readily available.

[jamsav]

I am still a fan of the venerable King 2341. Built like a tank. Nested valve block. Any repair shop worth its tools will have a morgue of "crash parts" available. Lasts forever with even minimal care. Good intonation and scale. Comparatively easy to play. Not finicky about mouthpiece selection.

+1

really good choice- but can you get it under 5k ?

[pierso20]

Even though a well-equipped repair shop can handle most things... If I was buying new horns for a school, it would be a great comfort to me to know that repair parts such as pistons are available.

My experience has been that some folks who sell the lower-priced instruments don't like to address such matters and are more interested in the retail sales.

Jupiter has a great parts program and from what I understand Accent parts are readily available, too.

Thanks for the input. Really, repairs/parts are my biggest concern. I don't care what the instrument says on it as long as I can get the parts and the instruments plays decent.

As far as instrument loans - We are very strict on this however I am definitely aware that getting 1200 for repairs is bigger than $50 for a mallet. But, I will not tolerate it. No one is "entitled" to be in my music class and if they can't take care of our expensive equipment and can't pay for the damage, then they have no place in my class. Since it's a new school, I've been able to carefully control the culture of taking care of our music rooms/equipment...that will help alleviate any need for repairs anyway.

Thanks!

[daytontuba]

I like the advice TubaTinkerer (Dan) gave - don't know your location, but I have found in the past that is quite wise to check with a few of the local repair folks about what they think - as they are the ones who will end up working on/maintaining the instruments you get. I would mention that the Jupiter 482 and 582 model horns are often thought of as pretty good value for the money, and I would think your repair folks (hopefully NAPBIRT certified like Dan is) would be pretty comfortable with Jupiter. I have nothing against any of the "clone" horns - wherever they are from - but keeping in mind that you want these horns to last a long time, with multiple players of varying abilities over the years, and you want to know you can get work on them done by local guys, Jupiter horns might be a pretty safe bet from a price/value standpoint - they also come with hard cases.

[pierso20]

You haven't told us whether you're talking about "just tubas" or "all instruments"

Right now, I'm only concerned with instruments that are typically difficult for parents to purchase for their kids (double french horns, tuba, euphonium), etc.

I try to encourage parents to own whenever possible - right now, our budget is better spent on tubas, percussion, etc.

So, really: Tuba, French Horn, Euphonium, Bari Sax, etc. Mostly trying to save money on the brass. Especially since I'm more knowledgeable - I can manage more lesser-known equipment. When it comes to WW's....I tend to defer to the experts.

[pierso20]

P.S. Strict policies look great on paper. It is one thing getting a kid's parents to cough up $20 for a mallet. It is entirely something else to get $1500 for a complete overhaul.

Marty, the HS I went to made us pay a rental fee each year that covered basic maintenance. The contract was very specific...in fact people who didn't turn in instruments or pay if major repairs had to be done were not given a diploma...or not promoted to the next grade. We had a tubist move and they took a school tuba. The directors almost sent it to collections to receive the horn back. These horns were property of the school district, not the band program...I do not know if it is different in other states. We were a small enough program at the time for everyone to have two tubas...one of the ones I used was a 1970s Miraphone 186 BBb (this was from 2001-2005)...had a bell crease and a few small dents, but still played better than the brand new one I played on my last two years at the school! The school district never sent the horns out to be cleaned or the bells to be rolled...only major repairs were done.

We took good care of our horns. One of the middle school tubas looked like a percussionist played it with a snare drum, and people had to pay up. I think the issue with contracts is the enforcement of them. You could buy the Chinese clone horns, though they are not as good quality as other horns in many instances, but you have a strict enough contract where kids don't graduate unless parents pay up...the instruments will be taken care of.

You know, I may consider asking for a rental fee to pay for these repairs. Not a bad idea. Some groups do a yearly participation fee. I may not go that far...but money is important. As well as maintenance.

[Bob Kolada]

I agree with mr bloke on the Chinese comp euphs, very good horns! Not quite as open down low as a Miraphone comp (or just about any NON-comp... ) but if you focus it's very usable and the rest of the horn plays very well. I even spent actual money, not Bob Bucks!, on a used one for a friend. Hell Brooke, you should buy one yourself*!
I also like the Schillbrunner but haven't spent enough time on it to have a detailed opinion on them.
The Accent/VMI rotary tubas also play well.


*or at least join those asking for a front valve version...

[ghmerrill]

I agree with mr bloke on the Chinese comp euphs, very good horns! Not quite as open down low as a Miraphone comp (or just about any NON-comp... ) but if you focus it's very usable and the rest of the horn plays very well.

(Definitely preferring non-comp instruments, but ...)

Get you a Wick 2AL (or better, 2NAL) for that horn. I'm playing the tuba part to a "Steely Dan" arrangement with that combination now and it works really well. Sounds more like a bass trombone than a tuba, but that's just fine (since I'm using the horn to otherwise play the bass trombone parts).

Unlike with the big Schilke mouthpieces, the large Wicks play well in tune on these instruments. (I haven't tried the 1AL or the 0AL, but suspect they're a bit too much. The 2AL is great for the low range and doesn't sacrifice anything above the staff for bass trombone or tuba parts. As a "tenor tuba" mouthpiece on these instruments it seems really great.)