Baritones

[bbocaner]

...and yes, the giant-bore/12" bell euphoniums not only begin to lose the characteristic sound, but (as we've seen) become so difficult to steer that a main tuning slide trigger has become oem.

Other than the giant miraphone 5050, all the latest crop of larger-belled euphoniums have the exact same bore AND bell taper that you'd see on older euphoniums. Besson 2052 has got a bell that's cut with 3/4" bigger diameter than a 1970s besson on the exact same taper and the exact same bore. Willson 2950/2960 and 2900 all also have the same exact bore as that 1970s besson. And I'll guarantee you that the trigger is MUCH MORE needed on the 1970s instruments than they are on the new ones.

[J.c. Sherman]

Well, nomenclature does get a bit weird here... but the German tenorhorn historically bears greater resemblance to the baritone member of the saxhorn family than the bass (euphonium). I investigate this a lot, and while it's a challenge to compare the bore profiles at times, as the valves come into the bore much earlier on the saxhorn style than the German oval (or upright) style), the tenor tuba/euphonium relationship is pretty well accepted (for better or for worse), and the tenor tubas are distinct (less so now, similar - it seems - to the brass band baritone) from the tenor horns. They are getting bigger, no doubt. But I think the role in Mahler 7 can sing much better - especially in the written tessitura - than a "standard" euphonium.

YMMV. I'm not sure this relationship is even contemplated much in modern orchestras, certainly in America.

There's of course works by Hindemith and others where this distinction is supposed to be marked.

There're always personal preferences, and even tubas run toward the dark and amorphous... trend that way. I like a greater distinctiveness. The Borg won't get me!!

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

...and yes, the giant-bore/12" bell euphoniums not only begin to lose the characteristic sound, but (as we've seen) become so difficult to steer that a main tuning slide trigger has become oem.

Other than the giant miraphone 5050, all the latest crop of larger-belled euphoniums have the exact same bore AND bell taper that you'd see on older euphoniums. Besson 2052 has got a bell that's cut with 3/4" bigger diameter than a 1970s besson on the exact same taper and the exact same bore. Willson 2950/2960 and 2900 all also have the same exact bore as that 1970s besson. And I'll guarantee you that the trigger is MUCH MORE needed on the 1970s instruments than they are on the new ones.

And yet... some people used to play in tune...

And yet... for some reason they cut those new bells larger...

And yet... some have larger receivers now...

(Yes, that was sarcastic )

[bbocaner]

My 2900 is easy to play in tune...no trigger...only two easy-to-favor issues in the middle of the range. I don't consider it (a model released in the 1970's) to be among the new crop of gigantic euphonia.

bloke "and if I can't play it in tune, there's always the traditional nanny-goat vibrato "

I didn't suggest that it was, BUT... the Besson 2052 (which you seem to consider one of those "gigantic" euphs) has the exact same bore through the valves, through the compensating loop, and actually a smaller bore through the fourth valve than your 2900. The only things bigger are the mouthpiece receiver and half an inch of bell.

And the 2052 is easy to play in tune also. Easier than any 2900 I've played, actually! But I still feel it's nice to have the trigger, to match pitches with other players or to adjust relative to your function in a particular chord. Sure, I could lip it -- but *I* (and a lot of other players) like the ability to blow right through the middle of the note and make all the adjustments with the trigger. It feels more natural if you are a trombone player and used to making handslide adjustments rather than lipping, and it's damn hard to do things like hit a note in the extreme high register and instantly be lipping it down. If you disagree, no problem... just don't buy a model with a trigger or don't use it, but please stop badmouthing tuning triggers in every single thread they come up.

[MSchott]

My 2900 is easy to play in tune...no trigger...only two easy-to-favor issues in the middle of the range. I don't consider it (a model released in the 1970's) to be among the new crop of gigantic euphonia.

bloke "and if I can't play it in tune, there's always the traditional nanny-goat vibrato "

We are getting off topic but I also play a 2900 and in reading about the newer Euphonium's on the market, especially for brass band use (which has been my gig for the last 17 years) sometimes I feel like my horn would now be considered a pea shooter. I would definitely consider adding a tuning slide trigger but don't feel the need for a heavy bell Adams or Stirling.

[Bombardonier]

I completed an entire season on a Yamaha 301 baritone. It was several years old, but hardly used at all (so the valves and slides were like buttah'). I have only ever played large bore euph or bass trombone setups...so the thought of using anything smaller than a 6.5AL/AM was terrifying for me. It was a great playing and head game experience. I cannot overstate the importance of "approach to playing" and "concept of sound" when switching between euphonium and baritone. In fact, I can do a reasonably good baritone impersonation on the euph with the right mouthpiece and mindset. (Of course, imitation is best in small doses.)

It is true that the current Brittish horns are somewhere between Euphs and the 301-style horn, but most of the time the "true" baritone parts played in American bands (read, community bands, wind ensembles, etc.) include Grainger or some other similar composer--in which case the 301 style horn does provide the "classic" turn of the 20th Century/early 20th Century sound. $.02 (of course, taking inflation into account, probably worth less)...

[JTJ]

OK, lets listen to one. Some lovely playing by a rising UK star on the instrument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUaL0Xio5bA" target="_blank

[J.c. Sherman]

Hmm...

I'd be interested in bbocaner's take on this. Lovely sound, and a baritone sound, at least at concerto volume. It doesn't strike me as dissimilar to my concept (or dare I say results) on my Yammy (though the player and I have different articulation ideals).

I'm looking at the specs on baritones, and it seems the principle change is in bell diameter and bore size; a similar modification to the modern trombone, which would allow the characteristic tone to be played at a higher dynamic, and darken the tone at lower volumes. I may be ready to acquiesce that the Yammy may be more suited for a slightly lower dynamic. But my taste for characteristic tone colors to be transparent in an ensemble remains.

[MSchott]

My 2900 is easy to play in tune...no trigger...only two easy-to-favor issues in the middle of the range. I don't consider it (a model released in the 1970's) to be among the new crop of gigantic euphonia.

bloke "and if I can't play it in tune, there's always the traditional nanny-goat vibrato "

We are getting off topic but I also play a 2900 and in reading about the newer Euphonium's on the market, especially for brass band use (which has been my gig for the last 17 years) sometimes I feel like my horn would now be considered a pea shooter. I would definitely consider adding a tuning slide trigger but don't feel the need for a heavy bell Adams or Stirling.

Have you ever tried tuning your (top-of-staff/middle-range) Bb and A about 5 - 10 cents flat?
That's what I do. Those two pitches can be pushed up to pitch without even thinking about it, and then everything else lines up (particularly the 8th partial, which some claim is high on this instrument) serendipitously.

That's exactly what I do and it brings the rest of the horn pretty well in tune. The open F below Bb is the bad note though. It's extremely sharp and still a bit sharp played 1 and 3 and slightly flat played with the 4th valve.

[bbocaner]

I'd be interested in bbocaner's take on this. Lovely sound, and a baritone sound, at least at concerto volume. It doesn't strike me as dissimilar to my concept (or dare I say results) on my Yammy (though the player and I have different articulation ideals).

Miss Marzella is awesome! She does have one of the darkest sounds out there. Check youtube for Kristy Rowe as an alternative, she's got a much brighter sound -- but I feel it's still very dark and euphonium-like, not at all trombone-like.

I have a playlist on my phone where some tracks from miss marzella's album "katrina" play right next to some tracks from roger behrend's euphonium album "elegance" and the sounds are extremely similar.

But go back and read my other posts, I never said the baritone shouldn't have its own sound and identity, just that that identity should be dark-sounding and shouldn't stick out in the brass band. Def. should be lighter and have less gravitas than euphonium.

I know I can't sound like that on the current yamaha baritones, especially not with a smaller mouthpiece like a 12C! But it's not completely out of the ballpark -- My whole point going back to the original poster was that if you were shopping for a baritone you should really look at the besson-type instruments over the current yamaha instruments for that reason; and that the mouthpiece should be on the larger side.

[Chadtuba]

Ok, so I did convince the wife to let me buy a baritone, but the budget she will allow for it will have to be one of the "clone" horns. Would you recommend the 3 valved compensating http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _4156.html Or the 4 valved non-compensating http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _7116.html I know the 4 valved says its compensating, but I can't find the compensating loops on it so as with a lot of "clone" talk I'm pretty sure its just hype marketing. Thanks.

[Bob Kolada]

Hell, if they made a comp 3+1 baritone clone I'd have to buy one. The Jin Bao euph I bought for my friend rocks but I feel she'd like a smaller horn.

[PMeuph]

My reasons to get the three-valve horn would be:

1. I'm a cheapskate...
2. Baritone lit (all that I have seen) doesn't go below low E.
3. If holding up the horn, I'd want the lighter horn.
4. I have tried three valve compensating euph and a 4-valve non-comp euph and I prefer the three-valve.

[imperialbari]

Which specific instrument from one of the two available models is the best player? That is what counts.

The 23 combination on the 3 valve compensating baritone is likely to tend flat. Some say the 23 combination of the non-compensating baritone tends sharp. None of these layouts are perfect, but they should both be manageable, so again it is the specific playability that counts.

Klaus

[Chadtuba]

For anybody that may be interested, I made an offer through ebay that was accepted for a better price on the Schiller 3 valved compensating baritone http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _6466.html I'll post my thoughts once it arrives. Three more weeks till I head off for the mountains of Colorado to play baritone in the Colorado Brass Band so I'm pretty excited for the trip and the new horn

[Chadtuba]

So after all was said and done, Jim Laabs didn't have the horn in stock that I wanted so I borrowed one of the baritones the band owned and ended up bringing it home with me for the next few months. A very fine example of the Yamaha 3 valved baritone. Two of us played 3 valved horns and two of us played the Yamaha 4 valved horns. I was able to spend one of the rehearsals with one of the 4 valved horns so I was able to play both examples and enjoyed both.

I'm supposed to get to the Twin Cities area later in the month so I'm hoping to get to the JL store there and try out the different models and then possibly purchase one. As the guys in this brass band all play the Yamaha horns (as well as the one or two other bands I may potentially play with on occasion) I'm hoping the Schiller 4 valved baritone plays as well as the euphonium copies do. In the mean time I'll also keep my eye open for a used Yamaha baritone on the bay. I'd like a 4 valver but I could live with the 3 valved horn if I can get a good deal.

I had a blast playing baritone last week. I hope to continue in that role next summer

[oldbandnerd]

I reccomend you get one of these from the ebay.co.uk site.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stunning-Impe ... 19d2d4e511" target="_blank