Small Eb mouthpiece sleuthing

[Walter Webb]

I recently acquired (don't ask, don't tell) a "Beau Ideal Chicago" half size Eb tuba, stamped Made in France, with very elaborate flowery engraving on all the guards and posts. It's probably from about 1900. The mouthpiece seems original, or at least it fits perfectly, but is very shallow and has a small backbore. Today, I went to a music store and tried Schilke bass bone mpcs with larger, deeper cups and it opened up the sound quite a bit. Unfortunately, the bass bone shank could only be pushed in a very small amount, just enough to catch onto the reciever. I think I need a better mpc.

From tubenet reading, I gather this is a Euro small shank because it starts at .470" and is fully inserted at .500", pushed in about .900" which is about halfway up the shank. I gather this one is used on many old Bessons and American Ebs. http://www.deniswick.com/images/stories ... nChart.pdf" target="_blank
Am I correct in assuming that the Denis Wick 4 or 5 small shank would fit? Can anybody here recommend another choice?

How much trouble would it be to change the receiver to an American Standard .520" ? Do such receivers exist or are they hand made/modified? Then, I would have many choices. It's a pretty cool tuba, easy to play above the staff, and it wants to sing like a euphonium. I had it sonic tank cleaned, about half a cup of chunky stuff came out, and it turned the tank fluid black!

If I am on the right track, I will ask if anyone has mpcs like this for sale.

Thanks for your consideration, Walter

[Donn]

Am I correct in assuming that the Denis Wick 4 or 5 small shank would fit?

I don't know from the dimensions, but the shank on my DW 5 is too small to fit well in a bass trombone, so that would seem to add up. The bass trombone mouthpieces are a poor fit in my Eb tuba, but go in a little farther than on yours.

If you're interested in a premium mouthpiece option, I believe the Doug Elliott system includes a small tuba shank. That might be an economical alternative to replacing the receiver - instead of a receiver to match various common mouthpieces, get a shank matching the existing receiver, on which various mouthpiece cups and rims can be installed. I have no experience with this stuff, so don't ask me whether it's a good idea or not.

[GC]

A have a Warburton tuba mp with a small Euro screw-on shank. Works well on old small-receiver horns.

[MikeW]

I am currently looking at mouthpiece options on my own small Eb (a Besson 2-20). I am still only feeling the water, and have yet to jump in and change stuff, so I have no personal experience with these matters, but I have collected a few gems from various experts:

There is a very helpful document at http://www.angus1.com/ssh/shank.htm

Matt describes the "small European" shank size as measuring 0.49", not 0.47", and says that a large-shank trombone mouthpiece will fit a "small European" receiver; Thus, if the trombone piece is too big for your instrument, then there is a good chance the Denis Wick pieces will also be too big.

One or two people have mentioned encountering old instruments with a receiver size that was too small for a trombone mouthpiece, ie. smaller than the "small European" size. These instruments are now rare, but this may be what you are dealing with. If it's that old, it may be collectible, and it may lose value if you modify it.

A repair tech may possibly be able to ream the receiver out to accept the Wick pieces. This is beyond my knowledge, you need to check with an expert.

Before trying to change to a larger receiver, check that your instrument actually has a separate receiver - apparently on some instruments the mouthpiece plugs straight into the mouthpipe, and what looks like a receiver is actually just a re-inforcing sleeve.

If your repair shop doesn't have any standard-shank receivers on hand, you can order the receiver for a Yamaha YBB321 tuba, which can be fitted in place of a small-European receiver (but in your case, the existing receiver may be smaller than that - again, get it looked at by an expert).

EDIT: read Doug Elliot's post, below. He's an expert, I am definitely not (check my sig).

Good luck

[Doug Elliott]

The shank size you're talking about is basically a medium euphonium shank. I have seen tubas and cimbassos with that size receiver. The problem with installing a standard receiver is that the backbore of a regular tuba mouthpiece is entirely too big for the small leadpipe. It would "open it up" but be very unbalanced and some things would suffer.

I can make that size shank, or customize if necessary, for any of my mouthpieces including all in the bass trombone, cimbasso, and tuba sizes. I have done it before with good results.

[Walter Webb]

Excellent, and very helpful replies. Thank you.
I did some further measurements that may clear up this mystery. As you can see, this is a really small tuba mpc! These measurements could vary quite a bit, especially those made on curved surfaces:
1. The backbore starts out at the base of the cup at .215" (measured with a tapered Bic pen tip and colored stain), and ends at .379"
2. The inside cup width from rim to rim is .840" (for comparison, a Bach 24AW is about 1.26")
3. The rim is .3" wide
4. The entire mpc diameter is 2.49"
5. The shank has a clear band of contact area. It starts at .465" and has untouched silver plating for the first quarter inch, and then the insertion mark begins at .470"

I apologize if this post is way too geeky, or TMI, but there are some real geeks out there, I know it. I think it's best to leave the receiver alone and send the mpc to an expert. Could an expert just chuck the mpc in a lathe and deepen the cup, widen the rim, open the backbore a little, round off the small dents to the rim, and have it silver plated?

It looks like there are choices in new mpcs, like Doug Elliott's CB 120 rim, with an L cup, extra small shank and who knows what backbore. There is also the smallest tuba series, starting at TU126. http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/pdf/catalog.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

[MikeW]

This site http://tubamania.com/Mouthpieces.htm describes a shank size for Perantucci mouthpieces intended for "instruments with extremely small receivers", smaller than that for "Eb or F tubas with particularly small receivers".

This may possibly be the size you need ? can't tell for sure because the given dimensions seem to be for the thick end of the shank, instead of the narrow end.

[MikeW]

It looks like there are choices in new mpcs, like Doug Elliott's CB 120 rim, with an L cup, extra small shank and who knows what backbore. There is also the smallest tuba series, starting at TU126. http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/pdf/catalog.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I think you'll find that the "extra small" shank is the same size as the large trombone shank, which is too big for your receiver. Doug's post above referred to a "medium euphonium" shank, which would have to be a special order; you need to check with Doug before you order.

[Donn]

I think you'll find that the "extra small" shank is the same size as the large trombone shank, which is too big for your receiver.

I don't know about the Doug Elliott version, but I have a Denis Wick small shank, and just want to reiterate that contrary to popular belief it is not the same as a large trombone shank, it's smaller. Might be the same at one end, but it's tapered different. I use it on an Italian Eb where it fits in about 3/4 inches, probably not ideal but fine for my purposes. A Bach bass trombone mouthpiece goes in 1/2 inch, and is not a good fit at that.

[Doug Elliott]

The typical smaller tuba shank is a little smaller than a bass trombone shank. The medium euph shank is about halfway between large and small trombone shanks, and is most likely very close to what that tuba needs - I've seen that before.

No need to "check with me before you order." It's one of the standard shanks I offer.

[iiipopes]

The older smaller tuba receiver, at least for British tubas, is .490 at the tip, and has the same shank taper as the "standard" "American" .520 tip mouthpieces.

Wick makes their number series (without the letter suffix) as a standard stock range in this size. The 3 is the most commonly used mouthpiece for Eb, and is a good starting point. Unfortunately, if you're shank is really @.470, then these mouthpieces won't fit, either.

There are others who make, or have made on special run, shanks with .490 or .500, but I don't know of anybody who makes anything smaller than that on a regular basis on the even smaller shank your original mouthpiece has.

So...I would figure out which mouthpiece bowl and rim characteristics give you the tone and intonation you're looking for, and have Doug Elliot machine a shank for you.

[Jack Denniston]

Awhile back I was looking for a mouthpiece for my Cuesnon 3/4 e flat tuba. You can see the replies here in the archives-
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41999&p=364357&hili ... on#p364357" target="_blank

I bought a Wick 3 and it fit fine and sounded fine, but caused the horn to play flat with the tuning slide clear in, so I returned it.

I talked to several vendors at the Army Tuba Euph conference, including Doug Elliott. They were all very helpful and Doug even went to the trouble of making a shank that fit perfectly, which I really appreciated. I didn't find any that I liked better than the original Cuesnon mp that came with the horn, so I'm still using it.

[Gilligan]

I've been using one of Bloke's Stainless Steel (Sellsmanberger) Imperials with a 32mm rim on my Besson Imperial and am having good results with it. He makes them with a smaller shank. Check them out at http://www.housermouthpiece.net/tumo.html